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Do Christians believe that the miracles in other major religions are true?

 
clayforHim648
 
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clayforHim648
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24 June 2009 14:35
 

Are you teaching your children that Jesus is the only true prophet?  Are you teaching your children that the Bible, and only the Bible, is the word of God?  Are you teaching your children that a terrible fate awaits those who do not believe what you believe?

Yes…Jesus is “the only Way to the Father”, the Bible is the Word of God, and all those outside of Christ will be judged on the merits of their ability to keep the whole Law.  These teachings, amongst others, are at the core of biblical truth and will be taught and modeled to my children.

 
 
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24 June 2009 14:55
 
clayforHim648 - 23 June 2009 07:11 PM

No, Clay, you’re clearly not talking about raising and teaching children how to live in this world. Well, I guess arguably you are. You’re teaching them how to deny this world while living in it and maintaining arrogant, intellectually dishonest presumptions about it that it won’t affirm. You’re teaching them intellectual dishonesty and cowardice, but I guess you’re technically right that you’re teaching them to be good, brave intellectually dishonest intellectual cowards who can maintain their depravity in spite of corrective efforts and in spite of the corrections the world naturally provides if you face it responsibly and honestly, like an adult.


How am I doing that?


Such is the fundamental nature of religious faith.

Byron

 
 
Traces Elk
 
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24 June 2009 17:56
 
clayforHim648 - 24 June 2009 06:35 PM

Yes…Jesus is “the only Way to the Father”, the Bible is the Word of God, and all those outside of Christ will be judged on the merits of their ability to keep the whole Law.  These teachings, amongst others, are at the core of biblical truth and will be taught and modeled to my children.

This is the common technique of religious people known as “making up shit” to avoid uncomfortable silences. In fact, when Clay cites the source for the statement, he will refer to a passage in scripture, which he believes applies to everyone, but only because the book itself says it applies to everyone. If you press him farther, he will cite the notion that a “subjective experience” informs him that the claims of the Bible are true, rather than that he believes the claims on their own merit. Clay is standing in quicksand, the quicksand of “making shit up”, which he will do as long as he has a congregation of fellow delusionists to reinforce his confidence.

In fact, Clay, since you claim to have “done well in school”, I’d like to ask you a question on a subject where you’re not allowed to “make shit up” because the answer is well-known. I doubt you ever knew much science except what you memorized to pass your tests, don’t remember much of it now, and will be hard-pressed to apply it, but here you go:

The inhabitants of 2nd Century C.E. Galilee would have found a refrigerator to be “miraculous”, but we don’t. See if you can name the four important considerations in specifying the power requirements for a frozen meat locker, like the one in which you keep your elk steaks. Of course, you can look it up, but if you can do it in less than ten words, then you probably understand what you read. It won’t be like reading your Bible, because you won’t be able to make this shit up.

[ Edited: 24 June 2009 18:21 by Traces Elk]
 
 
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24 June 2009 19:21
 
TrueTech - 24 June 2009 10:38 PM
sacrelekt - 24 June 2009 09:56 PM

See if you can name the four important considerations in specifying the power requirements for a frozen meat locker, like the one in which you keep your elk steaks.

OK, I’m an atheist, and I only know 1.  Pay your Pacific Gas & Electricity bill.

And God help you if you don’t. But the question is: What factors go into the subtotal amount of your bill that goes for keeping your elk steaks cold?

I’m just sick of all this BS about whether or not the miracles of one faith are at all believable to adherents of another. If Clay’s icebox holds more elk steaks than Osama Bin Laden’s, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[ Edited: 24 June 2009 19:27 by Traces Elk]
 
 
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25 June 2009 02:14
 
clayforHim648 - 24 June 2009 01:07 PM

I wonder, now that you have moved away from the Christian faith, what rights parents DO have concerning their children and if you could, give me your rationale…

Not “moved” away, but still in the process of “moving” away…  (sometimes reluctantly)

I really don’t think in terms of “rights” that should be bestowed upon me as a parent.  I see it more from the child’s perspective…  My child has the “right” to be loved, treated with respect, provided for (food, clothing & accomodations), disciplined fairly, properly educated and celebrated for their accomplishments (these are some of the basics).

Now that my view of Christianity has changed, I also believe my child has the right to a religion-free home.  No persuasion, daily affirmation or attempts to indoctrinate. No requirement to attend church.  No threats of eternal death.

They can decide what they want to believe once they’re old enough to think for themselves.

 
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25 June 2009 03:00
 
clayforHim648 - 17 June 2009 11:19 PM

It is the truth that they are unproven but not that unproven means it is untrue…if you catch my drift ...
I will teach her that our biblical worldview requires seeing all of life through the lens of Scripture.  She will have to decide ultimately whether she believes the extraordinary claims of Scripture and put her faith in Christ or not.  Until then, she will be taught that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and God’s Word provides the only consistent view of reality and the basis for a joyful life.  What she does with that knowledge will be her choice…

Typical religious moderate, partly believing in God, partly not, that’s even more idiotic than straight forward biblical literalism.  Your daughter’s soul is at stake, but you don’t want her to think the way you do, you want to leave her free choice to make up her mind.
Give me a break wink

[ Edited: 25 June 2009 03:04 by Non-believer]
 
 
clayforHim648
 
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clayforHim648
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25 June 2009 07:29
 

Not “moved” away, but still in the process of “moving” away…  (sometimes reluctantly)

I really don’t think in terms of “rights” that should be bestowed upon me as a parent.  I see it more from the child’s perspective…  My child has the “right” to be loved, treated with respect, provided for (food, clothing & accomodations), disciplined fairly, properly educated and celebrated for their accomplishments (these are some of the basics).

Now that my view of Christianity has changed, I also believe my child has the right to a religion-free home.  No persuasion, daily affirmation or attempts to indoctrinate. No requirement to attend church.  No threats of eternal death.

They can decide what they want to believe once they’re old enough to think for themselves.Not “moved” away, but still in the process of “moving” away…  (sometimes reluctantly)

I really don’t think in terms of “rights” that should be bestowed upon me as a parent.

You’re right, ST, I don’t like the term “rights” in regards to parenting either.  I only use the term because of the way parenting and parental “rights” are under attack in this country.  Within the Church, it is considered a privilege to be a parent and children are a specific blessing from God. 

My child has the “right” to be loved, treated with respect, provided for (food, clothing & accomodations), disciplined fairly, properly educated and celebrated for their accomplishments (these are some of the basics).

Indeed…all biblical, parental responsibilities.  No doubt your religious upbringing has informed your thinking in these matters.

Now that my view of Christianity has changed, I also believe my child has the right to a religion-free home.  No persuasion, daily affirmation or attempts to indoctrinate. No requirement to attend church.  No threats of eternal death.

To think that we have a better method of raising our children than God does is, I believe, a fatal error.  But we’ve been through this already.  It is specifically because children are vulnerable and prone to error that parents are given such a great responsibility in diligently teaching them God’s Word.  And submitting to God’s Word particularly keeps my heart and mind in check because I am prone to not take the responsibility as seriously as I should every day.  I would be a fraud trying to be a parent without appeal to God’s Word.  When my child is old enough to ask why or how I have the authority to tell them what they should do (i’m guessing about 7 or 8 years of age…maybe earlier), I couldn’t give them a consistent answer.

They can decide what they want to believe once they’re old enough to think for themselves.

No one’s denying this…my children will decide too.  But as long as they’re under my roof, they will submit to the teaching and practice therein.

 
 
clayforHim648
 
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25 June 2009 07:33
 

Typical religious moderate, partly believing in God, partly not, that’s even more idiotic than straight forward biblical literalism.  Your daughter’s soul is at stake, but you don’t want her to think the way you do, you want to leave her free choice to make up her mind.

Religious moderate?  All I said was that she has the ultimate responsibility of committing to Christ.  I am charged by God to raise my child to honor God and to prepare them for life.  I have no control over my child’s conscience.  That’s not being a moderate, its just being a Christian.  Some children of Christians give up their religious ties, others do not.  That is ultimately in God’s hands.

 
 
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25 June 2009 12:33
 
clayforHim648 - 24 June 2009 06:10 PM

Muslim parents should have the right to raise their own children as well.  They are not above the consequences if they raise infidel-hating suicide bombers.  If parents don’t have the right or authority to raise their own children, then who does, unsmoked? 

Basically what I’m saying is that law abiding parents should have the right to raise their children and the law should protect that right - do you disagree?

In the U.S. there are laws that will allow the state to take away your children if you abuse them physically.  If a child shows up at school with suspicious bruises, or indications of sexual abuse, I’m sure you would agree that the teacher should contact the authorities, and the matter should be investigated. 

If a child shows up at school saying that another race is inferior and should be eliminated, I suspect that many teachers would contact a child welfare department and there would be an investigation.

Your children will show up at school convinced that they are members of the one true religion, and that others are wrong.  They will show up at school with their heads filled with false ideas about biology, anthropology, geology and history.  Even though the teacher knows that your children will be seriously handicapped in the future if they try to enter any field of science or education related to those subjects, no action will be taken.

Many teachers will know that your children’s bias, their self-righteous arrogance, is a primary cause of human conflict and misery, but no action will be taken.  Teachers will know that your children’s superstitions and hexes, their growing mental impairments will make them quaintly retarded in the sciences, but no action will be taken.

Why will no action be taken?  Because you live in a country where this kind of child abuse is considered normal and good; just as in fundamentalist Muslim countries other forms of child abuse are considered normal and good. 

I’m not sure, but I suspect that if a little girl showed up in a U.S. public school with only her eyes peeping out of a black sheet - like a black ‘Casper the Ghost’, no action would be taken.  Such are the vulnerabilites of childhood in a world of religious crazies.

 
 
clayforHim648
 
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25 June 2009 16:26
 

Your children will show up at school convinced that they are members of the one true religion, and that others are wrong.  They will show up at school with their heads filled with false ideas about biology, anthropology, geology and history.  Even though the teacher knows that your children will be seriously handicapped in the future if they try to enter any field of science or education related to those subjects, no action will be taken.

Just the same as your children will show up at school convinced that their commitment to whatever they believe is true and others are wrong.  There is no reason for Christians to show up at school with false ideas about any subject.  If they disagree with something being taught, they can respectfully disagree in areas of contention and cite their reasons for it.  The school should respect the parents right to educate their children alternatively.  I’ve personally never encountered a Christian “handicapped” in the sciences because of their religious education or met a teacher that thought it was a major issue for the child.  If they are, that responsibility lies with the parent.  If it really becomes an issue, its likely that they will seek other areas of interest for careers; I wouldn’t expect you to complain about that…

Many teachers will know that your children’s bias, their self-righteous arrogance, is a primary cause of human conflict and misery, but no action will be taken.  Teachers will know that your children’s superstitions and hexes, their growing mental impairments will make them quaintly retarded in the sciences, but no action will be taken.

Again, never met a teacher who was particularly concerned about the bias or arrogance of Christian children or who believed it to be a primary cause of human conflict and misery.  Even the so-called “sheltered” home-schooled Christians that I’ve seen grow up and start careers are absolutely brilliant compared to the equivalent in public schools, even in mathematics and science.  Certainly they may have differing views on human origin and sociology and a variety of other subjects, but that hardly makes it impossible to function as a scientist, mathematician or even a historian. 

Why will no action be taken?  Because you live in a country where this kind of child abuse is considered normal and good; just as in fundamentalist Muslim countries other forms of child abuse are considered normal and good.

What action is to be taken, exactly?  See, this is the problem with the creation of a nationalized school system in the first place.  Children are processed, packaged and supposed to be delivered just like cars on an assembly line and any deviations from the current academic view of whatever subject is considered a problem that needs “action”.  Definitely read this speech for elaboration on my basic beliefs in this matter.

What is done in other Muslim countries is not my immediate concern.  I am most concerned with my country, and particularly my state and sphere. 

I’m not sure, but I suspect that if a little girl showed up in a U.S. public school with only her eyes peeping out of a black sheet - like a black ‘Casper the Ghost’, no action would be taken.  Such are the vulnerabilites of childhood in a world of religious crazies.

Such is the nature of religious and ideological liberty.  I’m beginning to think that you weren’t paying attention in history class when your teacher taught the Constitution.

 
 
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25 June 2009 16:28
 
Traces Elk - 24 June 2009 09:56 PM

See if you can name the four important considerations in specifying the power requirements for a frozen meat locker, like the one in which you keep your elk steaks. Of course, you can look it up, but if you can do it in less than ten words, then you probably understand what you read. It won’t be like reading your Bible, because you won’t be able to make this shit up.

ambient air temperature - ta
locker temperature required - tl <32f
total heat loss of locker wall ara = a*(1/u) (= heat loss coefficient = 1/r)
refrigeration equipment efficiency = #<1
heat capacity of elksteaks = Mc = lbs of elk * specific heat of elk (start up load)
time kept frozen

(((ta-ti)*(a * (1/u)) * time )+(mass elk * spht elk * (ta-tl))) * 1+(1-eff)

This solution ignores passive convection losses and air leakage losses

So Traces Elk….venerable native wise one….I know the specific heat of chicken meat…..but not elk, wink

[ Edited: 25 June 2009 16:31 by eucaryote]
 
 
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25 June 2009 20:06
 
clayforHim648 - 25 June 2009 11:29 AM

Indeed…all biblical, parental responsibilities.  No doubt your religious upbringing has informed your thinking in these matters.

I guess you’re right…  My “religious” upbringing did influence the way I treat my children today.  It taught me what not to do. 

My father was a physically abusive hypocrite. My mother bore the brunt of his abuse until she finally got the courage to leave him.  My example of a “Christian” father readily surrendered his parental rights to get out of paying support for his children.  He was NOT a hard worker or a good provider and he had no interest in his children. 
When we were at church, he was a much different man.  He talked the talk quite well.  He prayed, sang, clapped, spoke in tongues and occasionally teared up and joined in altar calls.  He was a fundamentalist Christian who believed the woman should be totally submissive to the man and that sparing the rod would spoil the child.  As a child I loved him unconditionally, as I got older I saw him for what he really was…  An asshole.

I am proud to say that I am not my fathers son.  I decided I was going to do things much differently and I did.

 
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26 June 2009 02:48
 
clayforHim648 - 25 June 2009 11:33 AM

Religious moderate?  All I said was that she has the ultimate responsibility of committing to Christ.  I am charged by God to raise my child to honor God and to prepare them for life.  I have no control over my child’s conscience.  That’s not being a moderate, its just being a Christian.  Some children of Christians give up their religious ties, others do not.  That is ultimately in God’s hands.

That’s obviously false. You mold your daughter’s mind the way you want, your child accepts everything you tell her as true. If you tell her God exists and Jesus is his son, she will accept it as truth, there’s no choice to make for her. When she grows up, she may change her mind, but it would be very difficult . Grown ups very rarely change their minds, just look in the mirror
If you were really committed to the word of the bible you wouldn’t want your daughter to be not a christian, you would do everything to bring her up as a christian. Free choice, you’re talking about is fiction
There’s no free choice in Christianity, believe in Christ or burn in hell

[ Edited: 26 June 2009 03:08 by Non-believer]
 
 
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26 June 2009 09:08
 
Non-believer - 26 June 2009 06:48 AM

When she grows up, she may change her mind, but it would be very difficult. Grown ups very rarely change their minds, just look in the mirror

I can’t agree with you enough NB. 

The saying “Give me the child till the age of seven and I will show you the man.” comes to mind…

The first few years are the most crucial. This is when the programming must take place (Proverbs 22:6).  Religious parents get “first dibs” at their childrens minds and work diligently to ensure they receive a childhood chocked full of religious “truth”. 

How could a young person strap a bomb to their chest and blow up innocent people?  Because as they were growing up, mommy and daddy told them that the infidels were vile, evil beings not worthy of life.  They learned that matryrdom is a glorious death and greatly pleases their god.  They were told that paradise would await them.

If parents are successful at indoctrination they will greatly increase the likelihood that their offspring will remain in the fold as adults and continue the tradition with their own children.

A good example of the success of childhood indoctrination can be seen in the Amish…  Most teens will return after rumspringa, get baptised and join church. Their minds (the majority of them) were already made up for them long ago - they are merely products of their parents belief.

 
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26 June 2009 11:51
 
clayforHim648 - 25 June 2009 08:26 PM

Your children will show up at school convinced that they are members of the one true religion, and that others are wrong.  They will show up at school with their heads filled with false ideas about biology, anthropology, geology and history.  Even though the teacher knows that your children will be seriously handicapped in the future if they try to enter any field of science or education related to those subjects, no action will be taken.

Just the same as your children will show up at school convinced that their commitment to whatever they believe is true and others are wrong.  There is no reason for Christians to show up at school with false ideas about any subject.  If they disagree with something being taught, they can respectfully disagree in areas of contention and cite their reasons for it.  The school should respect the parents right to educate their children alternatively.  I’ve personally never encountered a Christian “handicapped” in the sciences because of their religious education or met a teacher that thought it was a major issue for the child.  If they are, that responsibility lies with the parent.  If it really becomes an issue, its likely that they will seek other areas of interest for careers; I wouldn’t expect you to complain about that…

Many teachers will know that your children’s bias, their self-righteous arrogance, is a primary cause of human conflict and misery, but no action will be taken.  Teachers will know that your children’s superstitions and hexes, their growing mental impairments will make them quaintly retarded in the sciences, but no action will be taken.

Again, never met a teacher who was particularly concerned about the bias or arrogance of Christian children or who believed it to be a primary cause of human conflict and misery.  Even the so-called “sheltered” home-schooled Christians that I’ve seen grow up and start careers are absolutely brilliant compared to the equivalent in public schools, even in mathematics and science.  Certainly they may have differing views on human origin and sociology and a variety of other subjects, but that hardly makes it impossible to function as a scientist, mathematician or even a historian. 

Why will no action be taken?  Because you live in a country where this kind of child abuse is considered normal and good; just as in fundamentalist Muslim countries other forms of child abuse are considered normal and good.

What action is to be taken, exactly?  See, this is the problem with the creation of a nationalized school system in the first place.  Children are processed, packaged and supposed to be delivered just like cars on an assembly line and any deviations from the current academic view of whatever subject is considered a problem that needs “action”.  Definitely read this speech for elaboration on my basic beliefs in this matter.

What is done in other Muslim countries is not my immediate concern.  I am most concerned with my country, and particularly my state and sphere. 

I’m not sure, but I suspect that if a little girl showed up in a U.S. public school with only her eyes peeping out of a black sheet - like a black ‘Casper the Ghost’, no action would be taken.  Such are the vulnerabilites of childhood in a world of religious crazies.

Such is the nature of religious and ideological liberty.  I’m beginning to think that you weren’t paying attention in history class when your teacher taught the Constitution.

Public Schools in the U.S. are full of teachers whose heads are stuffed with religious nonsense.  Any teacher who tried to teach reason and truth to your children would be sacked immediately.  This is less the case in universities, and not the case at all in the international scientific community.  If your kids go to college they will have to hang close to Christian cliques to keep from being exposed to reason and truth - not that such exposure will affect their delusions - as others here have just pointed out.  Very few people who are religiously indoctrinated as children are ever able to shake off the hexes and superstitions instilled in them by their parents.

A Zen master said to one of his students, “Step back to your true self and you won’t miss anything.”  In your case, because of your religious conditioning, it is impossible for you to step back to your true self.  You can only step back to what it says in the Bible - a far cry from the fresh start you had as an infant.  Compared to the innocence and wide-ranging curiosity of your original nature, what a sorry pot of mental glue you have to ‘step back’ into.  What a sorry pot of hexes and lies you dunk your children into - making them into arrogant megalomaniacs who think they are God’s chosen people; who think they are ‘saved’ while everyone who doesn’t believe the nonsense they believe is ‘lost’. 

Sam Harris comments:

“It is time that Christians like yourself stop pretending that a rational rejection of your faith entails the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma.  One need not accept anything on insufficient evidence to find the virgin birth of Jesus to be a preposterous idea.  The problem with religion - as with Nazism, Stalinism, or any other totalitarian mythology - is the problem of dogma itself.  I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.

“While you believe that bringing an end to religion is an impossible goal, it is important to realize that much of the developed world has nearly accomplished it.  Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on earth.  According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality . . . Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest in terms of the U.N. human development index are unwaveringly religious.” - Sam Harris, writing in LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION.

 
 
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