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Why won’t Sam Harris ask Maajid Nawaz important questions?

 
Hesperado
 
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Hesperado
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13 December 2015 11:37
 

“So we could grill folks like Nawaz as you suggest, but will that really increase conversations?”

A conversation predicated on the acceptance as a friend of a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend is of course worthless; and when we’re in a predicament of not knowing whether a person offering himself as a friend is a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend—but we have good reasons to suspect he might be—it seems bafflingly silly to proceed without vetting him.  You and Sam Harris remind me of a guy who desperately wants to think he doesn’t really have stage 4 cancer and so he embraces a dubious doctor (say, “Dr. Nick” of The Simpsons) who tells him what he wants to hear—but not without pretending to be gravely serious about the problem (while adroitly sidestepping the real problem).

[ Edited: 13 December 2015 11:41 by Hesperado]
 
icehorse
 
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13 December 2015 12:11
 
Hesperado - 13 December 2015 11:37 AM

“So we could grill folks like Nawaz as you suggest, but will that really increase conversations?”

A conversation predicated on the acceptance as a friend of a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend is of course worthless; and when we’re in a predicament of not knowing whether a person offering himself as a friend is a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend—but we have good reasons to suspect he might be—it seems bafflingly silly to proceed without vetting him.  You and Sam Harris remind me of a guy who desperately wants to think he doesn’t really have stage 4 cancer and so he embraces a dubious doctor (say, “Dr. Nick” of The Simpsons) who tells him what he wants to hear—but not without pretending to be gravely serious about the problem (while adroitly sidestepping the real problem).

I’d guess that most of the folks reading this thread have been aware of taqiyya for quite some time.

But even if we put the Nawaz’s of the world thru your vetting process, how do we know they’re not lying then? It strikes me that if this is all a charade on Nawaz’s part, he’s allowed himself to be exposed to some secular sunlight, and we have to hope that that’s having a positive impact on him.

A key point here though is for you to understand that I’m not deluded as you imply. i’m quite suspicious of those billion or so unfortunate folks who were indoctrinated into Islam at an early age. That said, I don’t think you derail a locomotive by facing it head on.

 
 
GodlessKafir
 
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13 December 2015 13:05
 

Icehorse “That’s a good set of questions.”
Harris won’t ask Nawaz those questions because he is afraid of drawing conclusions that would make him a bigot. If he did Nawaz would not be able to give direct answers without exposing himself so he would just evade. Why don’t you try to answer them Icehorse?

“Harris has a line something like: “When disputes arise, they are solved either through conversation or guns.” It strikes me that Harris is trying hard to figure out how to bring the conversation option into more disputes.”
Yes which is stupid. He wants to have a war of ideas with Muslims. LOL.
In the movie The Terminator the character Kyle Reese talks about how the newer models of terminators are harder to identify because they can blend in as humans. “The Terminator (T Model 101) is an infiltration unit: part man, part machine. The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy, but these are new. They look human… sweat, bad breath, everything. Very hard to spot.” Nawaz is like the T Model 101 that Harris is chatting with but rather than actively trying to physically kills us with guns his weapon is deception.
Sarah Conner wasn’t afraid of being bigoted against terminators and accepted Reese’s conclusion “Listen, and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.”  If Western civilization is going to survive this war it will be forced to conclude that all Muslims are terminators. There is a fringe of ignorant ones that are truly peaceful and secular but falsely call themselves Muslims even though they are really human. The problem is there is no way to tell them apart from the Muslims who are trying to deceive us. The peaceful ones are not harmless. They function as decoys which makes them dangerous whether they are aware of it or not.They provide a comfort zone for the terminators to carry out their mission in.
Harris is delusional. He wants to deprogram the terminators that want to destroy our civilization by reforming the ideology of Skynet by talking to the terminators that were programmed by Skynet to destroy us and lie about it while doing it.

[ Edited: 13 December 2015 13:08 by GodlessKafir]
 
SkepticX
 
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13 December 2015 13:32
 
GodlessKafir - 13 December 2015 01:05 PM

“Harris has a line something like: “When disputes arise, they are solved either through conversation or guns.” It strikes me that Harris is trying hard to figure out how to bring the conversation option into more disputes.”

Yes which is stupid. He wants to have a war of ideas with Muslims. LOL.


Not at all. Harris wants Westerners to acknowledge that there’s no point to such a war from the West, that insiders are the only ones likely to be at all effective in such a war, and that they’re not likely to be very effective either ... more or less anyway. But he’s not unclear about pretty much the opposite of your characterization, actually.

 
 
GodlessKafir
 
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13 December 2015 13:54
 

SkepticX “Not at all. Harris wants Westerners to acknowledge that there’s no point to such a war from the West, that insiders are the only ones likely to be at all effective in such a war, and that they’re not likely to be very effective either ... more or less anyway. But he’s not unclear about pretty much the opposite of your characterization, actually.”

You have posted over 12k times on this forum and you don’t think Harris advocates having a war of ideas? What solution to Islam do you think he advocates in The End Of Faith and Letter To A Christian Nation? What solution do you think he was advocating for years during his media appearances and speeches?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4FaamAnldI
Harris says in this “We have to realize we have a choice between conversation or war. We either have to win a war of ideas with the Muslim world or we are going to fight some very terrible wars in the future.”

 
Hesperado
 
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13 December 2015 14:23
 
icehorse - 13 December 2015 12:11 PM
Hesperado - 13 December 2015 11:37 AM

“So we could grill folks like Nawaz as you suggest, but will that really increase conversations?”

A conversation predicated on the acceptance as a friend of a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend is of course worthless; and when we’re in a predicament of not knowing whether a person offering himself as a friend is a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend—but we have good reasons to suspect he might be—it seems bafflingly silly to proceed without vetting him.  You and Sam Harris remind me of a guy who desperately wants to think he doesn’t really have stage 4 cancer and so he embraces a dubious doctor (say, “Dr. Nick” of The Simpsons) who tells him what he wants to hear—but not without pretending to be gravely serious about the problem (while adroitly sidestepping the real problem).

I’d guess that most of the folks reading this thread have been aware of taqiyya for quite some time.

But even if we put the Nawaz’s of the world thru your vetting process, how do we know they’re not lying then? It strikes me that if this is all a charade on Nawaz’s part, he’s allowed himself to be exposed to some secular sunlight, and we have to hope that that’s having a positive impact on him.

A key point here though is for you to understand that I’m not deluded as you imply. i’m quite suspicious of those billion or so unfortunate folks who were indoctrinated into Islam at an early age. That said, I don’t think you derail a locomotive by facing it head on.

The point is, my position (which I base on argument based on a mountain of evidence) is that taqiyya is not merely a problem, but devastating; and the point of the vetting process for ilk like Nawaz is not really directed at ilk like Nawaz, but for those in the Counter-Jihad who think he’s not a mendacious enemy pretending to be a friend.  Prove me wrong by vetting him.  It’s that simple.  Sam Harris, evidently, is too afraid to take simple elementary measures to do so, because he’s afraid of what he will find; so better to pretend that it’s not there.  The stakes are too high for this type of childish behavior.

 
icehorse
 
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13 December 2015 14:30
 

Hey Hesperado,

A couple of questions concerning your approach:

1 - how do we tell if Nawaz types are lying?
2 - what if they admit they want sharia to rule the world? then what’s your plan?

 
 
SkepticX
 
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13 December 2015 14:34
 
GodlessKafir - 13 December 2015 01:54 PM

SkepticX “Not at all. Harris wants Westerners to acknowledge that there’s no point to such a war from the West, that insiders are the only ones likely to be at all effective in such a war, and that they’re not likely to be very effective either ... more or less anyway. But he’s not unclear about pretty much the opposite of your characterization, actually.”

You have posted over 12k times on this forum and you don’t think Harris advocates having a war of ideas? What solution to Islam do you think he advocates in The End Of Faith and Letter To A Christian Nation? What solution do you think he was advocating for years during his media appearances and speeches?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4FaamAnldI
Harris says in this “We have to realize we have a choice between conversation or war. We either have to win a war of ideas with the Muslim world or we are going to fight some very terrible wars in the future.”


Just as he explains that moderate Christians are probably the only ones who can very effectively address the fanatics, so he explains that (relatively) reformed Muslims are the far better candidates to mellow the Islamic fanatics, but it’s on the problematic side because there are very few truly moderate/reformed Muslims. The main point he raises is that the West needs to accept this reality if we’re going to work on how best to address the problem rather than to pretend it doesn’t exist because it’s uncomfortable to our delicate sensibilities, and that when it does come to the fanatics a war of ideas is pointless, as you pointed out, that we have to stop them with force. We’re not going to negotiate ISIS into being good neighbors. We’re going to have to neutralize their threat, which means killing most of them.

The war of ideas is a viable strategy in the West and with Christianity, and it’ll best be waged from the “inside” (though the fanatics are very quick to decide those who disagree are “Them” which can make that more of a generational war). The same goes for Islam, but it’s a good deal more problematic. That doesn’t change these facts though.

 
 
orange
 
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orange
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13 December 2015 14:42
 
SkepticX - 13 December 2015 02:34 PM
GodlessKafir - 13 December 2015 01:54 PM

SkepticX “Not at all. Harris wants Westerners to acknowledge that there’s no point to such a war from the West, that insiders are the only ones likely to be at all effective in such a war, and that they’re not likely to be very effective either ... more or less anyway. But he’s not unclear about pretty much the opposite of your characterization, actually.”

You have posted over 12k times on this forum and you don’t think Harris advocates having a war of ideas? What solution to Islam do you think he advocates in The End Of Faith and Letter To A Christian Nation? What solution do you think he was advocating for years during his media appearances and speeches?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4FaamAnldI
Harris says in this “We have to realize we have a choice between conversation or war. We either have to win a war of ideas with the Muslim world or we are going to fight some very terrible wars in the future.”


Just as he explains that moderate Christians are probably the only ones who can very effectively address the fanatics,

This is the error west makes. Moderate Christians do not believe Bible is from God. But Majid Nawaz or moderate Muslims still believe Koran is from God.  That is the big difference,

 
Hesperado
 
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13 December 2015 14:44
 

Yes Godless (to ScepticX)—“You have posted over 12k times on this forum and you don’t think Harris advocates having a war of ideas?”

Not only all the evidence you adduced shows that Sam wants to have dialogue with Muslims in order to try to win this war/solve this problem—but the way he has framed his new collaboration with Maajid Nawaz is obviously and explicitly predicated upon this.  And it’s clear to those of us who have been really digesting the mountains of data about Islam (as opposed to those who have looked at the mountains but not really digested their grotesquely alarming purport) that this grand project Sam and his new friend Maajid are embarking on—this Peace Train they are encouraging the rest of us to “hop aboard!”—is a structure built on faulty premises & assumptions.  The burden is on Sam to prove this bleak assessment wrong.  Instead, he is proceeding as though it doesn’t matter whether the premises & assumptions are faulty.  We can only conclude—as I and Godless have done—that Sam is too afraid to question his premises & assumptions and instead insists on walking out onto that vast suspension bridge holding hands with his new partner, Maajid (who at any rate isn’t really there with Sam, it’s only a deceitful hologram of a Reformist Muslim). 

Sam can risk his own neck doing something so reckless; but I’ll be damned if I let him bring the rest of us down with him in his deadly-silly game of Muslim Roulette he’s playing.

 
Hesperado
 
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13 December 2015 14:51
 

orange wrote:

“This is the error west makes. Moderate Christians do not believe Bible is from God. But Majid Nawaz or moderate Muslims still believe Koran is from God.  That is the big difference,”

Yes.  And much, much more that would undermine Maajid’s credibiilty (and therefore effectiveness).  And by the way, the phrase “moderate Muslim” has become a laughingstock in the Counter-Jihad.  Anyone who uses it sincerely, as ScepticX did, reveals where he’s at in the LCPOI (Learning Curve on the Problem of Islam).  I mean, dude, “moderate Muslim” is so 2003…

 
SkepticX
 
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13 December 2015 15:03
 
Hesperado - 13 December 2015 02:44 PM

Yes Godless (to ScepticX)—“You have posted over 12k times on this forum and you don’t think Harris advocates having a war of ideas?”

Not only all the evidence you adduced shows that Sam wants to have dialogue with Muslims in order to try to win this war/solve this problem—but the way he has framed his new collaboration with Maajid Nawaz is obviously and explicitly predicated upon this.  And it’s clear to those of us who have been really digesting the mountains of data about Islam (as opposed to those who have looked at the mountains but not really digested their grotesquely alarming purport) that this grand project Sam and his new friend Maajid are embarking on—this Peace Train they are encouraging the rest of us to “hop aboard!”—is a structure built on faulty premises & assumptions.  The burden is on Sam to prove this bleak assessment wrong.  Instead, he is proceeding as though it doesn’t matter whether the premises & assumptions are faulty.  We can only conclude—as I and Godless have done—that Sam is too afraid to question his premises & assumptions and instead insists on walking out onto that vast suspension bridge holding hands with his new partner, Maajid (who at any rate isn’t really there with Sam, it’s only a deceitful hologram of a Reformist Muslim). 

Sam can risk his own neck doing something so reckless; but I’ll be damned if I let him bring the rest of us down with him in his deadly-silly game of Muslim Roulette he’s playing.


The problem is that you guys are apparently missing important nuances, if they can really even be called nuances. You’re not noticing clear and important details, as in context, like Harris doesn’t want to engage Islamists in a war of ideas himself, nor does he think “The West” is likely to enjoy much success in such an effort, he wants Muslims who have reformed and/or who are genuinely moderate, few as they may be, to wage the war of ideas with mainstream Muslims with our support. He’s not unclear about that.

He recognized this situation even in regard to Christianity, where we have a lot of common notions (start at 1:01:50), so all the more with Islam where we have a good deal fewer.

[ Edited: 13 December 2015 15:30 by SkepticX]
 
 
orange
 
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13 December 2015 15:14
 
Hesperado - 13 December 2015 02:51 PM

orange wrote:

“This is the error west makes. Moderate Christians do not believe Bible is from God. But Majid Nawaz or moderate Muslims still believe Koran is from God.  That is the big difference,”

Yes.  And much, much more that would undermine Maajid’s credibiilty (and therefore effectiveness).  And by the way, the phrase “moderate Muslim” has become a laughingstock in the Counter-Jihad.  Anyone who uses it sincerely, as ScepticX did, reveals where he’s at in the LCPOI (Learning Curve on the Problem of Islam).  I mean, dude, “moderate Muslim” is so 2003…

I’d like from anyone who thinks Islam is a religion of peace and explain why Muslims are fleeing Muslims in the millions.

 
Hesperado
 
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13 December 2015 15:41
 
icehorse - 13 December 2015 02:30 PM

Hey Hesperado,

A couple of questions concerning your approach:

1 - how do we tell if Nawaz types are lying?
2 - what if they admit they want sharia to rule the world? then what’s your plan?

Well, since you’re asking me, the way I put it is that I reasonably assume (based on that mountain of data outside the window just behind my left shoulder) that there is no way for Nawaz to defend his position without lying, because his position is, as Andrew Bostom put it so bluntly, “disingenuous drivel”.  Hence what I said above, the real point of challenging Muslims is to show the naive Westerners who trust them that their trust is ill-founded.  (This assumes that the Westerners in question are capable of detecting disingenuous drivel when it’s given a shave and a haircut (the shave leaving a fashionable goatee and the hair pomatumed with Middle Eastern product) and dressed up in a snazzy suit, with plenty of spritzes of sickly sweet Oasis Mirage cologne for good measure—an assumption, alas, over-optimistic, I fear…) 

And to reiterate:  I’d say that those who think we don’t have to vet Maajid before we entrust him with a partnership contribution need to prove me wrong—either by actually vetting Maajid (and/or putting pressure on Sam to do it); or by constructing an argument demonstrating from what Maajid has said & written that he’s trustworthy.

[ Edited: 13 December 2015 15:48 by Hesperado]
 
SkepticX
 
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13 December 2015 15:58
 
Hesperado - 13 December 2015 02:51 PM

orange wrote:

“This is the error west makes. Moderate Christians do not believe Bible is from God. But Majid Nawaz or moderate Muslims still believe Koran is from God.  That is the big difference,”

Yes.  And much, much more that would undermine Maajid’s credibiilty (and therefore effectiveness).  And by the way, the phrase “moderate Muslim” has become a laughingstock in the Counter-Jihad.  Anyone who uses it sincerely, as ScepticX did, reveals where he’s at in the LCPOI (Learning Curve on the Problem of Islam).  I mean, dude, “moderate Muslim” is so 2003…

You mean when I wrote ” ... there are very few truly moderate/reformed Muslims ... “?
I also wrote in that same post that “We’re not going to negotiate ISIS into being good neighbors. We’re going to have to neutralize their threat, which means killing most of them.” Is that still too passive for you?

I should add that there are apparently relatively large numbers of reformed/moderate Muslims in the US, and that “moderate” and “reformed” are also pretty relative terms. But exporting these varieties of US Islam would be great if we could do it ... not sure how that could actually happen though.

[ Edited: 13 December 2015 16:04 by SkepticX]
 
 
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