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Do most christians believe in wizards?

 
roger_pearse
 
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roger_pearse
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03 June 2005 23:02
 

[quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”]
In what way did I insult new age beliefs?

You called my questioning a ‘sneering diatribe’

Are you saying it is not?  And, how is this description of your comments—made in response to some rather disingenuous comments, I might add—a comment on the New Age.

and said it should be directed at new ager types and not christians.

I notice you’re now taking my comments out of context and distorting them.  Don’t do this. 

Quite how saying your comments should be directed equally or more to New Agers is an insult to them, I do not see—unless you accept that your original comments were indeed insulting to someone.

[quote author=“roger_pearse”]
Glad that you accept that New Age ideas are “bonkers”—although why you insult New Age belief, given your accusation earlier I do not see.

Because you brought it up and pointed out that they believe in wizards.  Anyone can question, insult, or ridicule and religious belief or any other illogical, mystical belief whenever they want to.

But not then demand that others take back what they say on the grounds that it is insulting, surely?

[quote author=“roger_pearse”]
But in that case, why do you single out Christians for your accusation?

It’s worthy of discussion because it’s the most popular form of religion in the world and interesting to discuss and question.

This doesn’t answer the question.  If you jeer, jeer at those to whom the belief is important.

What accusation are you referring to?  That they have this belief?  I’m not accusing them of that; that’s in the bible.  I’m implying it’s silly and childish to believe such a thing. :?

I know.  I’m suggesting that it is dishonest to attack Christians for a belief you have no problems with when held by others.  I’m also suggesting that it is dishonest to attack people for insulting others, when in fact you admit yourself that you intend insult.

In short, I think you have refuted yourself, in both respects.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 
ShieldAxe
 
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ShieldAxe
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05 June 2005 05:19
 

[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”]
In what way did I insult new age beliefs?

You called my questioning a ‘sneering diatribe’

Are you saying it is not?  And, how is this description of your comments—made in response to some rather disingenuous comments, I might add—a comment on the New Age.

and said it should be directed at new ager types and not christians.

I notice you’re now taking my comments out of context and distorting them.  Don’t do this. 

Quite how saying your comments should be directed equally or more to New Agers is an insult to them, I do not see—unless you accept that your original comments were indeed insulting to someone.

[quote author=“roger_pearse”]
Glad that you accept that New Age ideas are “bonkers”—although why you insult New Age belief, given your accusation earlier I do not see.

Because you brought it up and pointed out that they believe in wizards.  Anyone can question, insult, or ridicule and religious belief or any other illogical, mystical belief whenever they want to.

But not then demand that others take back what they say on the grounds that it is insulting, surely?

[quote author=“roger_pearse”]
But in that case, why do you single out Christians for your accusation?

It’s worthy of discussion because it’s the most popular form of religion in the world and interesting to discuss and question.

This doesn’t answer the question.  If you jeer, jeer at those to whom the belief is important.

What accusation are you referring to?  That they have this belief?  I’m not accusing them of that; that’s in the bible.  I’m implying it’s silly and childish to believe such a thing. :?

I know.  I’m suggesting that it is dishonest to attack Christians for a belief you have no problems with when held by others.  I’m also suggesting that it is dishonest to attack people for insulting others, when in fact you admit yourself that you intend insult.

In short, I think you have refuted yourself, in both respects.

All the best,

Roger Pearse


Your mostly just making the same arguments I already showed were illogical.  Go back and read the old posts. 

This forum is for discussing christianity.  If you want to discuss new age beliefs you probably should make a new thread in another sub forum. 

So getting back to the original subject matter what your saying is that christians believe in wizards but the belief is not important?

 
roger_pearse
 
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roger_pearse
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05 June 2005 21:06
 

[quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”]
In short, I think you have refuted yourself, in both respects.

I see no response to the points made.

Your mostly just making the same arguments I already showed were illogical.  Go back and read the old posts.

I suppose if you can’t deal with my comments, you have to resort to sweeping statements like this.

This forum is for discussing christianity.  If you want to discuss new age beliefs you probably should make a new thread in another sub forum. 

So getting back to the original subject matter what your saying is that christians believe in wizards but the belief is not important?

You continue to ignore the content of my post.  Why are you so afraid to deal with it?

You cannot reasonably abuse one set of people for a belief you have no issues with when held by another.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 
MrMody
 
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MrMody
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06 June 2005 07:00
 

witches and wizards, oh my!

 
ShieldAxe
 
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ShieldAxe
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06 June 2005 07:13
 

[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”]
In short, I think you have refuted yourself, in both respects.

I see no response to the points made.

Your mostly just making the same arguments I already showed were illogical.  Go back and read the old posts.

I suppose if you can’t deal with my comments, you have to resort to sweeping statements like this.

This forum is for discussing christianity.  If you want to discuss new age beliefs you probably should make a new thread in another sub forum. 

So getting back to the original subject matter what your saying is that christians believe in wizards but the belief is not important?

You continue to ignore the content of my post.  Why are you so afraid to deal with it?

You cannot reasonably abuse one set of people for a belief you have no issues with when held by another.

I didn’t do that.  When you consider one religion for discussion, that implies nothing about any other religion.  You can simply talk about the one religion which is what i tried to do but you keep bringing up another in an effort to deflect the discussion.  By not talking about another religion, that does not mean that i accept that religion.  There are thousands of religions and mysticisms that probably believe in wizards or magic that i have not brought up.  That doesn’t mean that i accept all or any other them.  Your argument is completely and utterly illogical.  It’s like asking about car, say a Chevy, and saying it has a poorly designed engine and you saying “Oh that means you have no issue with Yugo’s engine design”.  :?  That’s how completely disconnected your argument is.

Here’s the part of my message you keep ignoring:

This forum is for discussing christianity.  If you want to discuss new age beliefs you probably should make a new thread in another sub forum. 

So getting back to the original subject matter what your saying is that christians believe in wizards but the belief is not important?

 
rabbit
 
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rabbit
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06 June 2005 07:22
 

Why not ask if wizards believe in christians?  LOL


Surely, not all christians ‘believe’ in wizards.  From my humble experience, I feel safe in speculating that among those christians who do ‘believe’ in wizards (i.e. practitioners of earth-based or Pagan rituals) their attitudes towards wizards range from condescension and pity to murderous hostility a la the Spanish Inquisition.  Is this a problem?  Yes.  It has cost me more than one job.  And it’s no simple matter to bring suit against such discrimination.

 
 
roger_pearse
 
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roger_pearse
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06 June 2005 08:36
 

[quote author=“ShieldAxe”]<rubbish>

Until you deal with my point, you’re merely wasting bandwidth.  Quite why you imagine that playing games with whether an objection is off-topic or not advances your fallacious point I do not know.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 
ShieldAxe
 
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ShieldAxe
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06 June 2005 09:52
 

[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”]<rubbish>

Until you deal with my point, you’re merely wasting bandwidth.  Quite why you imagine that playing games with whether an objection is off-topic or not advances your fallacious point I do not know.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Already dealt with your so called point. 
You can type but can you read?


Here’s the part of my message you keep ignoring:

This forum is for discussing christianity. If you want to discuss new age beliefs you probably should make a new thread in another sub forum.

So getting back to the original subject matter what your saying is that christians believe in wizards but the belief is not important?

 
ShieldAxe
 
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06 June 2005 09:59
 

[quote author=“rabbit”]Why not ask if wizards believe in christians?  LOL


Surely, not all christians ‘believe’ in wizards.  From my humble experience, I feel safe in speculating that among those christians who do ‘believe’ in wizards (i.e. practitioners of earth-based or Pagan rituals) their attitudes towards wizards range from condescension and pity to murderous hostility a la the Spanish Inquisition.  Is this a problem?  Yes.  It has cost me more than one job.  And it’s no simple matter to bring suit against such discrimination.

Intersting…the definition of wizard must vary between christians i’m sure.  some think it’s talking to the dead and/ or clairvoyance.  You’re considering it more of a pagan thing.

If you don’t mind me asking…how has it cost you jobs…that sounds really interesting.  Do you practice such pagan rituals?

 
Anonymous
 
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Anonymous
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06 June 2005 13:04
 

ShieldAxe, if you have a particular behavior or characteristic in mind when you use the term ‘wizard’, please elaborate so we can get on the same wavelength.  I assumed a general ‘occult’ definition that to the average christian includes, as far as I can tell, anything outside the judeo-christian mainstream.  I must confess, even though I own and read a King James, NIV, and the TNIV editions of the bible (as well as the texts of many other religions), I don’t concern myself with biblical scripture or biblical definitions.  So if your discussion values those above more ‘common’ conceptions, I’m at a loss to participate in that vein.  The ideas in the bible are interesting in their own way, but any valuable lessons are so badly diluted by and buried in garbage as to make the book effectively useless, Mr. Jefferson’s editorial efforts notwithstanding.  Therefore, I eschew all scriptural arguments as meaningless and personally irrelevant.

I’m not a ‘ritual’ kind of person.  I take the ‘magic’ as I find it.  I would probably be generally considered Pagan by most definitions, though I mainly think of my self as Tantric (the ‘worship’ of Kali, not the watered down and distorted western ‘sex religion’) and panethistic as opposed to pantheistic.

I don’t make my beliefs public in the work place, but in one instance the management, Pentacostals, insisted on a christian prayer service before meetings.  I couldn’t, in good conscience, participate and quickly found my job eliminated.

In another instance, my pentagram (symbolic, to me of the Golden Ratio and the beauty of life) and maze (ancient symbol of the Goddess and of the spiritual journey) pendants slipped out of my shirt while I was doing some heavy duty cleaning.  A co-worker noticed it before I got it tucked back in.  She didn’t question me about it, but she mentioned it to the shop owner and, again, I quickly lost the job.


So, I gather you feel it’s important that christians believe in wizards.  Why?

 
rabbit
 
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06 June 2005 13:07
 

:oops: forgot to log in…..brainfart rolleyes

 
 
ShieldAxe
 
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ShieldAxe
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06 June 2005 14:50
 

[quote author=“rabbit”]ShieldAxe, if you have a particular behavior or characteristic in mind when you use the term ‘wizard’, please elaborate so we can get on the same wavelength.  I assumed a general ‘occult’ definition that to the average christian includes, as far as I can tell, anything outside the judeo-christian mainstream.  I must confess, even though I own and read a King James, NIV, and the TNIV editions of the bible (as well as the texts of many other religions), I don’t concern myself with biblical scripture or biblical definitions.  So if your discussion values those above more ‘common’ conceptions, I’m at a loss to participate in that vein.  The ideas in the bible are interesting in their own way, but any valuable lessons are so badly diluted by and buried in garbage as to make the book effectively useless, Mr. Jefferson’s editorial efforts notwithstanding.  Therefore, I eschew all scriptural arguments as meaningless and personally irrelevant.

I’m not a ‘ritual’ kind of person.  I take the ‘magic’ as I find it.  I would probably be generally considered Pagan by most definitions, though I mainly think of my self as Tantric (the ‘worship’ of Kali, not the watered down and distorted western ‘sex religion’) and panethistic as opposed to pantheistic.

I don’t make my beliefs public in the work place, but in one instance the management, Pentacostals, insisted on a christian prayer service before meetings.  I couldn’t, in good conscience, participate and quickly found my job eliminated.

In another instance, my pentagram (symbolic, to me of the Golden Ratio and the beauty of life) and maze (ancient symbol of the Goddess and of the spiritual journey) pendants slipped out of my shirt while I was doing some heavy duty cleaning.  A co-worker noticed it before I got it tucked back in.  She didn’t question me about it, but she mentioned it to the shop owner and, again, I quickly lost the job.


So, I gather you feel it’s important that christians believe in wizards.  Why?

Thank you for sharing those stories.  They were quite interesting as I suspected.  Sounds like litigation was an option - with success dependant on your geography to a great extent.

I don’t feel it’s important that christians believe in wizards and I really don’t know what the bible definition of a wizard is (ie what kind of powers they supposedly have).  The term itself is taken from the bible.  Presumably it pertains to people who posess supernatural power.  I’m just interested in people’s opinions and I also just like to point out what I feel are some of the bizarre and perhaps lesser known biblical oddities.  Some christians believe it refers to talking to the dead and/ or clairvoyance as I said.  Some play with semantics to make it more pallatable for them to retain the belief.

 
Anonymous
 
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06 June 2005 14:51
 

While I do not dispute your claims about regarding the occupational discrimation you have faced, I do wonder about
the area in which you reside. Here in the major cities in the
“blue states”, such discrimination does not seem at that common.

  I myself have always been greatly intrigued by all things occult,magickal,mystical,etc….for most of my life. Although
I neither believe, or disbelieve in the validity of any of it.
I am simply an “armchair” occultist who does no more than
read about the subject and keep open mind. This attitude
has been criticized by people who actually practice the “occult
arts” etc…. not to mention 100% atheistic materialists. As Charles
Darwin said; “I feel I must be content to remain an agnostic”. In any case, I really don’t see much discrimination of this type,even coming from christians,in the major metro areas of the “Blue States”. Again, I just have difficulty believing that you live in or around,a major city in the blue states.Perhaps you would care to let me know what general area you reside in? I think this would explain much regarding the level of discrimation you claim to have
faced.

 
roger_pearse
 
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roger_pearse
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06 June 2005 21:43
 

[quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”]<rubbish>

Until you deal with my point, you’re merely wasting bandwidth.  Quite why you imagine that playing games with whether an objection is off-topic or not advances your fallacious point I do not know.

Already dealt with your so called point.

Evasion noted.

You can type but can you read?

Abuse noted.

Here’s the part of my message you keep ignoring:  This forum is for discussing christianity. ...

Repetition of evasion noted.

Sad.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 
Anonymous
 
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07 June 2005 04:38
 

Sorry if you don’t approve of the term “pagan” to identify you. I merely lacked a better term. I personally knew several satanists
(of the “laveyian” type) who openly wore a baphomet inverted pentagram and/or a inverted cross. I personally don’t agree with
most of their philosophy,however I have a certain appreciation for
them, because they tend to p*ss off and even terrify, hysterical christians. :twisted:  They were simply individuals I knew from my college days as a guitarist in a few heavy metal bands.

  In any case, this was in a “blue state,” in a major metro area. I never witnessed,nor heard them complain about discrimination. Now these individuals were somewhat intimidating in appearance
so mabye only the bravest christian would be willing to give them any problems. Also, many people(even non-christians) seem to think satanists are all charlie manson,drugged-out,psychopaths and they are just afraid of satanists and satanism in general. IMO, their bark is a whole helluva alot louder than their bite,usually.

Anyway, I am still guessing you are somewhere in the “bible belt"and/or “red-states”. Many in the radical religious right are simply bullies. Most bullies are cowards by nature. They wouldn’t dare stand up for their beliefs in an area where they had few allies.
I suggest a move,if possible. I would not live(mabye with the exception of a major metro area) in one of the “red-states” for
all the tea in china and I am simply an agnostic secularist. People such as yourself are asking for alot more than just workplace discrimination in the more 13th century areas of the USA. Oh well, where is Nero, Caligula,the Colosium and few lions, when you need them?

  If you think i’m exaggerating, think again. I have heard of numerous,well-documented cases of radical christian-perprertated
violence against wiccans, neo-pagans and others practicing alternative spiritualities that many christians consider “satanic”.
There was a recent case of a satanist young man who was severally beaten,for no reason by two christian teenage males
in New York City!!! I don’t want to sound like a hysterical alarmist,but considering the apparent growth among the radical
religious right,things may be getting a little more dangerous for people like yourself, and just about everyone else who does not believe what these maniacs believe. If you reside somewhere in the “red states” these days, with your beliefs, you are at ground f**kin’ zero,partner. If this is the case and you can’t leave,I hope for your sake you keep your beliefs as private as possible. If you are in some evangelical,bible-thumping part of the country, you may just run the same risk as a Jewish person in certain parts of 1950’s Alabama did, if your beliefs are widely known. Good luck.

 
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