The Law and the New Covenant

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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20 May 2009 17:21
 

I thought I’d expand a bit on my reply to Daystar here—and kick off the Judaism forum with a thread on the Mitzvah and the New Covenant.  A couple of my favorite topics.
The Mosaic Law is the basis of the Torah, pretty much…the relationship that Jews have with their God.  There are 613 Mitzvah—or commandments—that are laid out in the Torah (the commandments that Moses received on Sinai are the first ten), and scripture is very explicit that every law must be followed by every Jewforever.  No exceptions. 
There’s not a word in Jewish scripture about a guy named Paul (or Jesus) coming along later and repealing the law or any part of it.

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.—-Ezek 37:24

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.—Ezek 36:27

Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.—Deut 11:1

Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.—Psa 119:152,160

The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.—Psa 111:7-8

Christians imagine that Jeremiah’s New Covenant (Jeremiah 31) applies to them…that Jesus has “fulfilled” (whatever that means) the Mosaic Law, making it no longer necessary to salvation…Jesus brings the New Covenant, so to speak. 
There are problems with this view.
Firstly, when Jeremiah’s New Covenant is established—just like all the old ones—it will apply to the relationship between the combined children of Israel and their god.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.—Jeremiah 31:31

 
Christians are not members of the house of Israel, or the house of Judah…by definition…so the New Covenant can’t apply to Christians. 

Secondly, Jeremiah quotes God as saying that He will “put” His law in our “inner parts” and in our “hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33)...i.e., everyone will be hard-wired to know and follow the law.
I am very good friends with a number of bone-fide members of the house of Israel, and none feel a New Covenant in their inner parts or any compulsion to obey all 613 Mitzvah.  So apparently the New Covenant hasn’t been established as yet.

Thirdly, Jeremiah says that when the New Covenant is established, Jews will “teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord!”: for they shall all know me…” (31:34)
In other words, when the New Covenant is established, Jews will have no need for people like Paul. 

Thing is, Christian theists are in a pickle:
Do they follow the Law as scripture demands?
Or do they trust their souls to a 1st Century opportunist and mystic, prone to hallucination?

[ Edited: 21 May 2009 08:32 by Andrew]
 
 
Sonny Dee the Notorious
 
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Sonny Dee the Notorious
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20 May 2009 19:04
 

Wonderful!

When I was a christian this is exactly the type of stuff that messed with my head… and no one in the church wanted to tackle.  Especially with a fourteen year old.

 
 
Andrew
 
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21 May 2009 18:54
 

(Andrew-previously):  The Mosaic Law is the basis of the Torah, pretty much…the relationship that Jews have with their God.  There are 613 Mitzvah—or commandments*—that are laid out in the Torah (the commandments that Moses received on Sinai are the first ten), and scripture is very explicit that every law must be followed by every Jewforever.  No exceptions.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

For the sake of clarity; the Hebrew word mits‧wah or mitzvah *means “commandment”...

(Andrew):  What I said.


[snip irrelevant pedantry]

(Andrew-previously):  There’s not a word in Jewish scripture about a guy named Paul (or Jesus) coming along later and repealing the law or any part of it.

Isaiah - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones;”

(Andrew):  If there’s something in that passage about someone named Paul (or Jesus) coming along later and repealing the law, I missed it.  Would you please bold it for me?  Best I can tell, Isaiah—an annointed prophet—was talking about himself.

Luke - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. Then he started to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.”

(Andrew):  There’s not a word in Jewish scripture about a guy named Paul (or Jesus) coming along later and repealing the law or any part of it.

Ezekiel - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Since this was hundreds of years after David’s death, who did it apply to?

(Andrew):  The children of Israel, the chosen of God.

Ezekiel - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Again, David is long dead. Who does it apply to?

(Andrew):  The children of Israel, the chosen of God.

The Deuteronomist - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

And did they?

(Andrew):  That’s irrelevant.  They were commanded to.  They still are.

Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.—Psa 119:152,160

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

For ever?

(Andrew):  Yes.

[snip more irrelevant pedantry]

(Andrew-previously):  Christians imagine that Jeremiah’s New Covenant (Jeremiah 31) applies to them…that Jesus has “fulfilled” (whatever that means) the Mosaic Law, making it no longer necessary to salvation…Jesus brings the New Covenant, so to speak.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill. In other words the Jews were not able to fulfill it, Jesus did.

(Andrew):  Christian mumbo-jumbo.  How does one “fulfill” a law?  One “obeys” a law…one doesn’t “fulfill” a law.
In any case, whatever Jesus did or didn’t do, the Law is still in effect.  Forever.  All of it. 
It’s in the Bible.

(Andrew-previously):  There are problems with this view.
Firstly, when Jeremiah’s New Covenant is established—just like all the old ones—it will apply to the relationship between the combined children of Israel and their god.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Not if they rejected it and were not able to keep it.

(Andrew):  That’s irrelevant, Daystar.  The Law is still the Law, even if it’s disobeyed. 

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

The Jews waited for a messiah for thousands of years, when that one, who is the only one who could have been that messiah showed up…

(Andrew):  If your reference is to Jesus, he could not have been the Jewish messiah.  I’ll start a new thread explaining why not.  In any case, the combined houses of Israel and Judah, to whom the New Covenant will apply, cannot be Christians…because they’re Jews.  So the New Covenant cannot apply to Christians.

[snip witnessing]

(Andrew-previously):  Secondly, Jeremiah quotes God as saying that He will “put” His law in our “inner parts” and in our “hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33)...i.e., everyone will be hard-wired to know and follow the law.
I am very good friends with a number of bone-fide members of the house of Israel, and none feel a New Covenant in their inner parts or any compulsion to obey all 613 Mitzvah.  So apparently the New Covenant hasn’t been established as yet.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

The new covenant will be in their hearts when sin and death are no more.

(Andrew): You pulled that from your fundament.  Jeremiah says nothing at all about the absence of sin and death initiating a New Covenant.  Don’t try to bullshit me, Daystar.  This is not my first day on the job.

Just to make sure that you have a firm grasp on “covenant”, it’s an “agreement”.  A new agreement between God and the children of Israel, is not the same as repealing the old Law and establishing a new one.  There’s never any mention of a new Law…just a new agreement.

[ Edited: 29 May 2009 16:37 by Andrew]
 
 
john76
 
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21 May 2009 22:07
 
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 07:23 PM
Andrew - 21 May 2009 04:54 PM

(Andrew-previously):  The Mosaic Law is the basis of the Torah, pretty much…the relationship that Jews have with their God.  There are 613 Mitzvah—or commandments*—that are laid out in the Torah (the commandments that Moses received on Sinai are the first ten), and scripture is very explicit that every law must be followed by every Jewforever.  No exceptions.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill. In other words the Jews were not able to fulfill it, Jesus did.

(Andrew):  Christian mumbo-jumbo.  How does one “fulfill” a law?  One “obeys” a law…one doesn’t “fulfill” a law.
In any case, whatever Jesus did or didn’t do, the Law is still in effect.  Forever.  All of it.

Exactly.  Many Bible thumpers cite this, which I presume is from Matthew 5

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

They always cite Matt 5:17 and bail.

5:18 is explicitly clear that even if Junior came to “fulfill” the law or the prophets (If you think fulfilling a law is nuts, imagine fulfilling a prophet.  You’ll need a much big bladder for that!), the fulfillment thingy has not happened yet.

How do we know this?  Junior is quite clear above, when he says “until heaven and earth disappear, not…”  OK, I do not have a GPS location or a tricorder reading of this heaven place, but earth is still around.  Hasn’t disappeared.

Heck, Junior even says “I tell you the truth”.  This means something.  Like he isn’t bullshitting like he might have been where he does not say “I tell you the truth”.


Then again, this would be a good time for the re’em riding thumpers to whip out the Greek/Hebrew/Swahili translation and change what words really mean.

You might want to check out Dr. Barrie Wilson’s “How Jesus Became Christian” on that one

 
 
Andrew
 
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21 May 2009 23:20
 
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 07:23 PM

Exactly.  Many Bible thumpers cite this, which I presume is from Matthew 5

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

They always cite Matt 5:17 and bail.

5:18 is explicitly clear that even if Junior came to “fulfill” the law or the prophets (If you think fulfilling a law is nuts, imagine fulfilling a prophet.  You’ll need a much bigger bladder for that!), the fulfillment thingy has not happened yet.

How do we know this?  Junior is quite clear above, when he says “until heaven and earth disappear, not…”  OK, I do not have a GPS location or a tricorder reading of this heaven place, but earth is still around.  Hasn’t disappeared.

Heck, Junior even says “I tell you the truth”.  This means something.  Like he isn’t bullshitting like he might have been where he does not say “I tell you the truth”.


Then again, this would be a good time for the re’em riding thumpers to whip out the Greek/Hebrew/Swahili translation and change what words really mean.

(Andrew):  Right.  Jesus is pretty clear that he didn’t come to destroy the Law…that was Paul*.  Jesus is no help to the Christian who wants to ignore the Sabbath and eat crabs.
I’m not much of a “New Testament” guy (the Jewish Bible is much more interesting), but even weirdo Revelation makes it pretty clear, if Jesus hadn’t already, that the Law is the ticket to salvation.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.—14:12

And

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.—22:14

And that the Kingdom is not yet:

For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The words of God are not fulfilled.  Heaven and earth have not passed away.  The Law is to be obeyed—every jot and tittle—until they have.  Yet Christians continue to work on Saturday.
Go figure.

*Scripture is pretty hard on salesmen like Paul:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.—Deuteronomy 4:2)

And

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven….—Matthew 5:19

 
 
john76
 
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21 May 2009 23:54
 
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 08:24 PM
john76 - 21 May 2009 08:07 PM
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 07:23 PM
Andrew - 21 May 2009 04:54 PM

(Andrew-previously):  The Mosaic Law is the basis of the Torah, pretty much…the relationship that Jews have with their God.  There are 613 Mitzvah—or commandments*—that are laid out in the Torah (the commandments that Moses received on Sinai are the first ten), and scripture is very explicit that every law must be followed by every Jewforever.  No exceptions.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill. In other words the Jews were not able to fulfill it, Jesus did.

(Andrew):  Christian mumbo-jumbo.  How does one “fulfill” a law?  One “obeys” a law…one doesn’t “fulfill” a law.
In any case, whatever Jesus did or didn’t do, the Law is still in effect.  Forever.  All of it.

Exactly.  Many Bible thumpers cite this, which I presume is from Matthew 5

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

They always cite Matt 5:17 and bail.

5:18 is explicitly clear that even if Junior came to “fulfill” the law or the prophets (If you think fulfilling a law is nuts, imagine fulfilling a prophet.  You’ll need a much big bladder for that!), the fulfillment thingy has not happened yet.

How do we know this?  Junior is quite clear above, when he says “until heaven and earth disappear, not…”  OK, I do not have a GPS location or a tricorder reading of this heaven place, but earth is still around.  Hasn’t disappeared.

Heck, Junior even says “I tell you the truth”.  This means something.  Like he isn’t bullshitting like he might have been where he does not say “I tell you the truth”.


Then again, this would be a good time for the re’em riding thumpers to whip out the Greek/Hebrew/Swahili translation and change what words really mean.

You might want to check out Dr. Barrie Wilson’s “How Jesus Became Christian” on that one

I might, but assuming that you already have, why not share a synopsis with us?  It’d help us all if there is a relevance to the two verses, certainly me.

If you want to learn what a well respected, peer reviewed PhD who has taught the bible for over thirty years has to say on the issue, go get the book yourself and spend your time engaging in his argument (which actually requires you to read the entire thing, not just get my ‘take’ on it), lazy ass.  If you don’t, listen to “Bible in a Paragraph” by Daystar or Andrew.  After all, Andrew has over 2800 ‘posts,’ and Daystar, according to Daystar, is the authority.

 
 
GAD
 
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22 May 2009 02:24
 
john76 - 21 May 2009 09:54 PM

If you want to learn what a well respected, peer reviewed PhD who has taught the bible for over thirty years has to say on the issue, go get the book yourself and spend your time engaging in his argument (which actually requires you to read the entire thing, not just get my ‘take’ on it), lazy ass.  If you don’t, listen to “Bible in a Paragraph” by Daystar or Andrew.  After all, Andrew has over 2800 ‘posts,’ and Daystar, according to Daystar, is the authority.

I read it. His constant praise for the Jews and the greatness of there monotheism was a bit much for me, and a large part of the book is how he thinks things played out. Still, some things that make you go hmmm. Bottom line, Jesus was a Torah tote’n Jew and Paul and Luke stole that from him.

 
 
john76
 
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22 May 2009 15:28
 
Simpleton - 22 May 2009 02:07 AM
john76 - 21 May 2009 09:54 PM
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 08:24 PM
john76 - 21 May 2009 08:07 PM
Simpleton - 21 May 2009 07:23 PM
Andrew - 21 May 2009 04:54 PM

(Andrew-previously):  The Mosaic Law is the basis of the Torah, pretty much…the relationship that Jews have with their God.  There are 613 Mitzvah—or commandments*—that are laid out in the Torah (the commandments that Moses received on Sinai are the first ten), and scripture is very explicit that every law must be followed by every Jewforever.  No exceptions.

Daystar - 21 May 2009 04:03 PM

Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill. In other words the Jews were not able to fulfill it, Jesus did.

(Andrew):  Christian mumbo-jumbo.  How does one “fulfill” a law?  One “obeys” a law…one doesn’t “fulfill” a law.
In any case, whatever Jesus did or didn’t do, the Law is still in effect.  Forever.  All of it.

Exactly.  Many Bible thumpers cite this, which I presume is from Matthew 5

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

They always cite Matt 5:17 and bail.

5:18 is explicitly clear that even if Junior came to “fulfill” the law or the prophets (If you think fulfilling a law is nuts, imagine fulfilling a prophet.  You’ll need a much big bladder for that!), the fulfillment thingy has not happened yet.

How do we know this?  Junior is quite clear above, when he says “until heaven and earth disappear, not…”  OK, I do not have a GPS location or a tricorder reading of this heaven place, but earth is still around.  Hasn’t disappeared.

Heck, Junior even says “I tell you the truth”.  This means something.  Like he isn’t bullshitting like he might have been where he does not say “I tell you the truth”.


Then again, this would be a good time for the re’em riding thumpers to whip out the Greek/Hebrew/Swahili translation and change what words really mean.

You might want to check out Dr. Barrie Wilson’s “How Jesus Became Christian” on that one

I might, but assuming that you already have, why not share a synopsis with us?  It’d help us all if there is a relevance to the two verses, certainly me.

If you want to learn what a well respected, peer reviewed PhD who has taught the bible for over thirty years has to say on the issue, go get the book yourself and spend your time engaging in his argument (which actually requires you to read the entire thing, not just get my ‘take’ on it), lazy ass.  If you don’t, listen to “Bible in a Paragraph” by Daystar or Andrew.  After all, Andrew has over 2800 ‘posts,’ and Daystar, according to Daystar, is the authority.

I take it that you had nothing to offer before, and jumped in when you should not have.

Noted.

Thanks for nothing.  If you expect me to heed your suggestion, you need to provide some basis for it.  The fact that you cannot even summarize the connection is indicative of your disingenuous nature.

It’s more of an asshole nature than a disingenuous nature