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Sam is not enough

 
Lapin Diabolique
 
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Lapin Diabolique
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22 May 2009 22:15
 

“Conversational intolerance is not enough” would have been a more accurate title for this thread, but a far less catchy one.
After all,in my other life I am a sales person, so false advertisement and blatant and undiluted fuckwittery come naturally to me.

I like Sam (Peace Be Upon His Clear Thinking Head), I really do.
As a non-native speaker I am in awe of his mastery of the English language, his remarkable equanimity, even when faced with the most idiotic and vile douchebaggery, his composure, his calm and his unwavering courage when staring hideous religious lunacy squarely in its bible-quoting, widow-burning, sanctimonious, honor-killing face.

Yet, his suggested approach to deal with the howling mad, the teeming hordes who grovel like worms in front of Sky Daddy about thirty minutes before they stick their cock in a choir boy, is not enough, and I shall say why.

This afternoon I read a most excellent expose of mormonism (my spell checker urged me to capitalize this word, but I, wisely, ignored it) by Christopher Hitchens (P B U H Whiskey-sodden H) and I was left wondering how on Darwin’s beautiful and brutal blue planet anybody can be made to believe such rank idiocy, given to us by such an obvious charlatan.

Well, most of you are well-educated folk, so I won’t insult your intelligence by spelling out the evolutionary necessity of children heeding their parent’s advice.

We are left with a rather depressing conclusion.

Human beings, who can give us such wonders like peniclin,  skyscrapers and internet porn, can also be made to believe, it seems, literally anything.

With a little luck, a third-rate con man like J. Smith, can convince millions of our neighbors that he is not a slimy, slick, self-serving cocksucker.

Odds are that you have been cruelly awoken, on Sunday morning whilst nursing a vicious hangover, by a duo of bicycle-riding, white-shirt-black-tie-wearing,  teenage, Nazi-look-alike robots, who were thoroughly convinced that they had unlocked the secrets of the universe.

Because of this I’d say that the time for conversational intolerance is long past and that we should treat the faithful like we treat the Ebola virus, with zero tolerance so we can destroy this self-destructive meme with extreme prejudice.

[ Edited: 23 May 2009 11:06 by Lapin Diabolique]
 
 
rab
 
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rab
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22 May 2009 22:39
 
Bad Rabbit - 22 May 2009 08:15 PM

Because of this I’d say that the time for conversational intolerance is long past and that we should treat the faithful like we treat the Ebola virus, with zero tolerance so we can destroy this self-destructive meme with extreme prejudice.

Treat the faithful with zero tolerance and extreme prejudice?

I disagree. Perhaps treating the belief with zero tolerance and extreme prejudice, depending on the belief and its destructiveness, is a better approach.  smile

 
DrawingYou
 
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DrawingYou
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23 May 2009 06:12
 

I agree with Rab.  It is better to say that we should attack the idea rather than idiot with the idea (for there, by the grace of Darwin, go I.)  Religion is a powerful hallucinogenic and I consider myself lucky to no longer be under its influence.

 
Fredwho
 
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Fredwho
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23 May 2009 06:47
 

If one chooses to indulge in a war of personal abuse, then there’s nothing to be gained by a pretext of reason. Reason must appeal to reason. Sam Harris is a clever man, but I admire him primarily for his attitude. He’s a first rate ambassador for the non-religious.

[ Edited: 23 May 2009 07:12 by Fredwho]
 
nv
 
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nv
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23 May 2009 14:27
 
Bad Rabbit - 22 May 2009 08:15 PM

. . .
Because of this I’d say that the time for conversational intolerance is long past and that we should treat the faithful like we treat the Ebola virus, with zero tolerance so we can destroy this self-destructive meme with extreme prejudice.

You’re being very bad, Bad Rabbit, as usual. But your tone and word choices actually tell a tale in potent obliteration style. In the long run, What is more potent than words? Yours may differ just a bit from Harris’ but both of you are certainly conversational, so far at least. Moving beyond words would, in any circumstance I can imagine, most likely backfire severely. So I suspect you’re being ironic.

Are you also asking the moot question, “Let’s heap a little ridicule on the most ridiculous notions ever invented”?

 
 
esnyder
 
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esnyder
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23 May 2009 14:38
 

Misters Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens and Dennett do us all a service when their arguments are solidly grounded and their tone is mature, dignified, strong, clear eyed, assertive and unappologetic.  All of these translate into respectability.  Our appeal is, after all, to reason, not emotion. 

A program of smarmy, scorched earth polemics will drive people away at a time when they are finally interested.  I cannot imagine any argument we could put forth, or rebuttal to religious ignorance, self-deception, and prejudice, which would benefit in any way from visciousness or intellectual condescension.  If we degenerate into a hate group I will have to reconsider my participation.

 
Occam
 
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Occam
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23 May 2009 16:08
 

Like any forum, a myriad of ideas are bound to be served into play. It would be sad for you to depart, in any case, because we would not have the benefit of hearing your point of view. I hear what you’re saying, but I would encourage your participation nonetheless. It might make for interesting, thought-provoking dialog and give others an opportunity to see things from your perspective.

 
 
esnyder
 
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esnyder
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23 May 2009 18:30
 

Ohgoodgrief.  Don’t worry about that.  I’ve worked long and hard on this site.  I know personally that Mr. Harris wants to have the highest level of discourse here.  We are setting a high standard.

 
DanDare
 
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DanDare
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23 May 2009 20:36
 

Reason = Long Term Win
Anger = Short Term Fail

 
Josh
 
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Josh
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24 May 2009 01:52
 

Oh looky! Rabbit-hunting season appears to have officially begun! Time to grab my AK-47. Look who’s boldly emerged from behind the bushes, declaring in a stentorian voice that…

Bad Rabbit - 22 May 2009 08:15 PM

...blatant and undiluted fuckwittery come naturally to me.

Why, I do declare, it’s an overly-zealous, ill-tempered hare! It’s okay, children, you can pet him; he’s harmless…..he’s all invective and no bite.


...even when faced with the most idiotic and vile douchebaggery…..staring hideous religious lunacy squarely in its bible-quoting, widow-burning, sanctimonious, honor-killing face.

While I agree that killing and burning people are NOT acceptable, and trust that you do not plan on engaging in such activities…..your condemnation of sanctimony just completely maxed out both my “irony” AND “hypocrisy” meters.

...the howling mad, the teeming hordes who grovel like worms in front of Sky Daddy about thirty minutes before they stick their cock in a choir boy…

Keeping in mind that about 96 percent of Catholic priests have NOT stuck anything where it didn’t belong, I trust that you will not be embarking on a Crusade against the entire Catholic church, when your efforts would be much more productive against the perverted 4 percent that do not deserve their title.

...mormonism (my spell checker urged me to capitalize this word, but I, wisely, ignored it)...

I have a Mormon co-worker, and I’m willing to bet that he would now be MUCH more likely to listen to your logic and reason than he would have before this post…..considering the high level of respect that you have shown for him.

Odds are that you have been cruelly awoken, on Sunday morning whilst nursing a vicious hangover, by a duo of bicycle-riding, white-shirt-black-tie-wearing,  teenage, Nazi-look-alike robots, who were thoroughly convinced that they had unlocked the secrets of the universe.

This has happened to me about once or twice in my entire 31 years on this earth. Is this really that much of a problem where you live? Here’s how you handle it…..if you’re nursing a hangover and are not interested in conversing with these well-intentioned Mormons, you can just politely tell them that you’re not interested in discussing anything with them, and point them in the direction of your neighbor’s house. I postulate that they will gladly move on and let you get back to sleep, without giving you any trouble.

Because of this I’d say that the time for conversational intolerance is long past and that we should treat the faithful like we treat the Ebola virus, with zero tolerance so we can destroy this self-destructive meme with extreme prejudice.

Because of the 4 percent of Catholic priests that molest boys…..and because of the 13 million Mormons (in a world of 7 BILLION people), some of which might cruelly show up at your door from time to time (armed with books).....you want to treat EVERYONE with any kind of faith like you treat Ebola. And why? To destroy the “self-destructive” meme. I’m sure that the billions of theists out there (the ones who AREN’T participating in widow burnings, honor killings, or child molestation, IOW, the vast majority of them) are grateful that you have shown so much interest in saving them from themselves. However, I believe that such efforts would be counter-productive if they are unwilling to even listen to you in the first place, because of your unbridled sanctimony and apparent lack of respect for them.

 
SeanK
 
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SeanK
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24 May 2009 02:39
 
Bad Rabbit - 22 May 2009 08:15 PM

“Conversational intolerance is not enough” would have been a more accurate title for this thread, but a far less catchy one.
After all,in my other life I am a sales person, so false advertisement and blatant and undiluted fuckwittery come naturally to me.

I like Sam (Peace Be Upon His Clear Thinking Head), I really do.
As a non-native speaker I am in awe of his mastery of the English language, his remarkable equanimity, even when faced with the most idiotic and vile douchebaggery, his composure, his calm and his unwavering courage when staring hideous religious lunacy squarely in its bible-quoting, widow-burning, sanctimonious, honor-killing face.

Yet, his suggested approach to deal with the howling mad, the teeming hordes who grovel like worms in front of Sky Daddy about thirty minutes before they stick their cock in a choir boy, is not enough, and I shall say why.

This afternoon I read a most excellent expose of mormonism (my spell checker urged me to capitalize this word, but I, wisely, ignored it) by Christopher Hitchens (P B U H Whiskey-sodden H) and I was left wondering how on Darwin’s beautiful and brutal blue planet anybody can be made to believe such rank idiocy, given to us by such an obvious charlatan.

Well, most of you are well-educated folk, so I won’t insult your intelligence by spelling out the evolutionary necessity of children heeding their parent’s advice.

We are left with a rather depressing conclusion.

Human beings, who can give us such wonders like peniclin,  skyscrapers and internet porn, can also be made to believe, it seems, literally anything.

With a little luck, a third-rate con man like J. Smith, can convince millions of our neighbors that he is not a slimy, slick, self-serving cocksucker.

Odds are that you have been cruelly awoken, on Sunday morning whilst nursing a vicious hangover, by a duo of bicycle-riding, white-shirt-black-tie-wearing,  teenage, Nazi-look-alike robots, who were thoroughly convinced that they had unlocked the secrets of the universe.

Because of this I’d say that the time for conversational intolerance is long past and that we should treat the faithful like we treat the Ebola virus, with zero tolerance so we can destroy this self-destructive meme with extreme prejudice.

 

I thought that was quite humorous.  I echo the sentiments of some of those who posted regarding approach… but I do love a good comedy.  And you, sir, are a top notch linguist with a flare for profoundly funny metaphor.  Nice work.

Silly rabbit, religion is for douchebaggery.

[ Edited: 24 May 2009 02:42 by SeanK]
 
 
Josh
 
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24 May 2009 12:01
 
SeanK - 24 May 2009 12:39 AM

I thought that was quite humorous.  I echo the sentiments of some of those who posted regarding approach… but I do love a good comedy.

I agree, SeanK. We monarchs need some comic relief from time to time, and good court jesters are hard to come by these days.

My only concern is this…..imagine for a moment that you’re a person with religious faith, and you stumble upon a website which calls itself the “reason” project. You notice a link to a forum, and click on it, thinking that there will be civil, REASON-able people to converse with about religious issues. And then the first post, of the first thread, on the first subforum, features the highly abrasive words of a very silly rabbit. You find yourself being unfairly lumped in with those who molest choir boys, burn widows, kill for “honor”, and ride bicycles on Sunday mornings wearing black ties. You furrow your brow as he suggests that you be treated just like the Ebola virus. Now, looking through theist eyes, how likely would you be to have any interest in reading on, to see what anyone ELSE on this forum has to say?

First impressions are extremely powerful. How many theists will be digging their heels in deeper, completely unreceptive to us, simply because they are under the impression that the court jester with the big floppy bunny ears actually speaks for the rest of us civil, reasonable, respectful, critically-thinking monarchs?

[ Edited: 24 May 2009 12:04 by Josh]
 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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24 May 2009 12:09
 

mark

 
 
SeanK
 
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SeanK
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24 May 2009 12:55
 
Josh - 24 May 2009 10:01 AM
SeanK - 24 May 2009 12:39 AM

I thought that was quite humorous.  I echo the sentiments of some of those who posted regarding approach… but I do love a good comedy.

I agree, SeanK. We monarchs need some comic relief from time to time, and good court jesters are hard to come by these days.

My only concern is this…..imagine for a moment that you’re a person with religious faith, and you stumble upon a website which calls itself the “reason” project. You notice a link to a forum, and click on it, thinking that there will be civil, REASON-able people to converse with about religious issues. And then the first post, of the first thread, on the first subforum, features the highly abrasive words of a very silly rabbit. You find yourself being unfairly lumped in with those who molest choir boys, burn widows, kill for “honor”, and ride bicycles on Sunday mornings wearing black ties. You furrow your brow as he suggests that you be treated just like the Ebola virus. Now, looking through theist eyes, how likely would you be to have any interest in reading on, to see what anyone ELSE on this forum has to say?

First impressions are extremely powerful. How many theists will be digging their heels in deeper, completely unreceptive to us, simply because they are under the impression that the court jester with the big floppy bunny ears actually speaks for the rest of us civil, reasonable, respectful, critically-thinking monarchs?

Oh I agree.  Hence the echo part.

However, two points to consider.  The post will eventially drift into obscurity when we quit replying to it.  People who want to have reasonable debate won’t be disuaded by these comments. 

Approach is important, and name calling isn’t effective.  But like rab’s avatar commonly would say, “Why so seriousss!?”

 
 
Josh
 
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Josh
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24 May 2009 13:19
 
SeanK - 24 May 2009 10:55 AM

The post will eventially drift into obscurity when we quit replying to it.  People who want to have reasonable debate won’t be disuaded by these comments.

Approach is important, and name calling isn’t effective.  But like rab’s avatar commonly would say, “Why so seriousss!?”

Don’t get me wrong…..I’m all for keeping a good court jester around to entertain us. This forum would be dull and boring without people like Rabbit. My concern was with THIS specific post, because of where it was located (the first of the first of the first), and the potential for a bad first impression. But you’re right; if we stop replying to this post, then it will eventually fade into the background. In fact, let’s all just stop posting on this particular thread, and let it drift on down the list, so that B. Rabbit’s post will NOT be the first thing that people see on this supposedly pristine oasis of reason.

So enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, B. Rabbit, because you’re about to be sent back to the other side of 8-mile.

In order to do my part in this effort, this will be my last post in this thread. I hope that no one else will post here, either. See you all on other threads!

 
SeanK
 
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SeanK
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24 May 2009 13:23
 
Josh - 24 May 2009 11:19 AM

In order to do my part in this effort, this will be my last post in this thread. I hope that no one else will post here, either. See you all on other threads!

Sounds good… oh… woops.

 
 
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