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Sam is not enough

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
Total Posts:  9231
Joined  15-06-2006
 
 
 
04 June 2009 19:18
 

(Andrew—previously):  No, something that I personally lived through and remember quite well.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

Just you or do you suppose it is possible that others, like my friends, have been through as well?

(Andrew):  I can’t say.  You asked if information about the Stonewall Riot was something that I got from the Internet and I informed you that no, I was there.  I lived on Barrow St, right around the corner from the Stonewall and was active in the gay culture.  If your friends were there also perhaps we were neighbors. 


(Simpleton—previously):  Maybe I should get tell them that they should be thankful that they are not being beaten silly like they used to be the old days.
(Andrew):  If they’re not thankful for that, you definitely should remind them.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

I will…

(Andrew):  Excellent….but only if they’re not thankful.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

...and if you can, please let me know who they should be thankful to.

(Andrew):  Not thankful to...thankful about.  But if they want to thank someone…perhaps the totality of gays who came before them and did the heavy lifting so they can walk down the street hand in hand in relative safety…and can even be considering a legal marriage?

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

...do you remind any black skinned people that they should be thankful that no one is enslaving them anymore?

(Andrew):  I’ve never encountered a black person who needed to be reminded of that.  If I run across one, I will.


(Andrew—previously):  That we—the gay community—has come a very long way in an incredibly short period of time.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

I am not gay…

(Andrew):  I guessed that right off the bat.


(Andrew—previously):  If your friends think nothing has changed for homosexuals in America in their lifetimes, they’re petulant morons.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

Oh no, that’s not what they say at all.  What they is that it is and has not been fast enough.

(Andrew):  “Fast enough” is subjective.  Tell them to read up on some gay American history…that’ll perhaps give them a different perspective on how far we’ve come since Stonewall.

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

Wow!  They were similarly excited last year when the California Supreme Court ruled that they could marry, and then, in a towering tidal wave or progress, 52% voted to take that away, and just recently the same court upheld that denial of rights.

(Andrew):  It’ll come back around.  Trust me.  They’ll be able to get married this time next year.  But if they’re in a big hurry, tell them to move to New Hampshire.  Or Maine!  I’ll perform the ceremony!

Simpleton - 03 June 2009 09:12 PM

I am confused, does progress involve them be allowed to marry or not allowed to marry?

(Andrew):  Remember when Massachusetts legalized gay marriage?  Remember the bru-ha-ha?  Yesterday’s announcement from New Hampshire was a blip…I don’t even think Faux News reported on it. 
That’s progress.

[edit] Don’t get me wrong, Simpleton.  I’m not suggesting that your friends should sit down and shut up.  They need to keep the pressure on and I’m with them 100%.

[ Edited: 04 June 2009 19:39 by Andrew]
 
 
NomoNOMA
 
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NomoNOMA
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Joined  12-05-2009
 
 
 
05 June 2009 13:33
 

Simpleton,
Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you but I’ve truly been swamped with work.  Your comments deserve a reply which I will give you hopefully in a day or two.

 
 
NomoNOMA
 
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NomoNOMA
Total Posts:  25
Joined  12-05-2009
 
 
 
07 June 2009 12:56
 

OK Simpleton,

Let’s cover a few points.  In your several points, you appear to contradict yourself

What do you do when CA won’t grant gays full civil rights?  You engage in non-violent protest and fight to change people’s minds.

Well, non-violence has not worked.  It has shown no signs of working.  Non-violent protests have not worked.  What makes you think that it’ll magically work?

and when I say ‘wrong’ you backpedal and try to hedge by opening a discussion of pacifism.  I don’t have time for that discussion (though I do value your opinion, seriously) but you should admit that you didn’t truly mean the statement you wrote above.

You defend (rightly) gay rights adamantly so we’re in agreement.  As has been said on this thread—there are many ways to engage the religious and I am not saying a unified approach is the best one.  We should hear all angles of dissent.  I am NOT accomodating religion by taking the position that I want to resist them non-violently, openly, on multiple fronts, and not attacking them personally but their stupid ideas.  This can be done without the whites of your eyes turning red.  Harris and Dawkins are doing it now—zero tolerance and grind them down.  It’s working, just not as fast as you’d like it seems from you repeatedly using the gays rights example.  When the Pope, Newt Gringrich, and Mike Huckabee all pronounce atheism and paganism to be the greatest threats publically, you know they’re starting to lose.

To some extent, I agree .

Then I look at the 52% of Prop 8 voters who voted to deny rights to homosexuals, overwhelmingly based on religious rationale.  I wonder whether these were moderately religious or the “extreme religious fringe”.

I honestly cannot tell the difference.

Please.  California was a hair away from granting marriage to gays and lesbians.  52% is not a supermajority.  It’s sad but it’s not over.  I think you fail to realize just how fast gays and lesbians have made progress in the US.  It took blacks centuries to get property rights, right to vote, repeal or ignore interracial marriage laws, etc.  Women took the better part of a century to get the vote and they’re half the population.  Gays and lesbians have fought openly and hard since the 60s and they’re getting full rights in several States.  This will continue.  It takes time for the racist/misogynist/homophobe generation to die off for progress to be made.  The KKK is dead.  The right wing of the Republican party is marginalizing itself and beginning to bleed out.  The religious right’s leaders are beginning to get old and sound irrelevant: Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan, etc.  Again, humanism memes are spreading rapidly, homophobia is spreading slowly if at all.  Talk to young people and they appear to be less concerned with being gay than ever before.

One thing that I think will hamper the march of secular humanism is playing nice.  Here is a great example of why we shouldn’t play nice with the religious or even science who want to play nice with them:
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/did-chris-mooney-tell-me-to-shut-up/

I’ll say it again.  Give the religious no refuge and shout down the fundie protester with the sign if you like (I won’t but I will support you in the crowd if you do).  I apologize if I attributed some of BadRabbit’s sentiments to you, I was reading quickly and you both appear to agree on the flame on approach.

 
 
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