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Different religions

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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02 June 2009 01:15
 

Another big problem Jews have (and probably had way back when too) is the idea of God taking human form.  The awesome, unfathomable, almighty God could not be encompassed in a man.  Even Moses, prophets, and annointed kings were imperfect human beings, not incarnations of God. 

So, yet another example of how early Christians, beginning with Paul, reworked the Jewish beliefs to cast Jesus as their messiah.  I’m not saying Paul was “making it up,” but his vision of Jesus was definitely a huge paradigm shift.

For the most part, fortunately, Christian society has come a long way from when Jews were vilified as Christ killers.  Today, many Christians believe that Jews are just ignorant of Jesus or stubborn.  If they only listened and learned what God had done through Jesus, their religion would be completed.  Many good-hearted Christians just don’t realize how insulting this sounds.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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02 June 2009 03:21
 
hannahfriend - 01 June 2009 11:15 PM

Another big problem Jews have (and probably had way back when too) is the idea of God taking human form.  The awesome, unfathomable, almighty God could not be encompassed in a man.  Even Moses, prophets, and annointed kings were imperfect human beings, not incarnations of God. 

So, yet another example of how early Christians, beginning with Paul, reworked the Jewish beliefs to cast Jesus as their messiah.  I’m not saying Paul was “making it up,” but his vision of Jesus was definitely a huge paradigm shift.

For the most part, fortunately, Christian society has come a long way from when Jews were vilified as Christ killers.  Today, many Christians believe that Jews are just ignorant of Jesus or stubborn.  If they only listened and learned what God had done through Jesus, their religion would be completed.  Many good-hearted Christians just don’t realize how insulting this sounds.

Since there is no god, Jesus wasn’t god and didn’t speak to Paul in a vision, so he did make that up.  As for making up Jesus altogether, that’s the question, you can see many Christian ideas in Jewish writings from the Hellenistic period before Christ, so I learn toward Jesus being Jewish idea before Paul.

 
 
LogicAndReason
 
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LogicAndReason
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02 June 2009 11:26
 
GAD - 01 June 2009 12:00 PM

[I don’t think I disagree with anything you’ve said above. Do you think Jesus form the Gospels and Matthew, Mark and Luke were Jews?

That is a good question…Jesus, the intentional object of some writer’s who wrote in Greek prose and were later labeled Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (first reference was in Against Heresies by Irenaeus of Lyons - Not a Jew in 180 CE) was presented as Jewish…but Paul never refers to Jesus as a Jew…does he? Jesus is just the Jewish Attis as far as I can tell. The name Jesus (Joshua in Hebrew) was the 3rd most common Hebrew Male name of the 1st century…kind of like calling a new savior ‘Bill’ today. If Jesus actually was a man who lived, history didn’t notice him. You can’t find a single 1st century references to him. Later references, such as Tacitus, are about Christians…not Jesus, and parrot Christian claims. Did a man named Jesus actually live? Too little evidence to be sure.

Here is one you can bank on…the Gospels, the first of which was Mark (circa 70 CE) were not written by ignorant fishermen from Galilee who were illiterate and spoke Aramaic…they were written in beautiful Greek prose. The authors were men of leisure and education. All we can reference is the redacted and interpolated copies we have today…there are no originals and the copies were passed generations by generations through the hands of scribes…Mark 16:9-20 and the end of John 7, beginning of John 8 (Jesus saving the adultress) are absolutely known interpolations and are noted this way in many study bibles…do you trust these redactions about a man who was not recorded historically?

Christianity stole the Jewish Epic to claim a history/epistemology. Christians have been trying to eradicate the Jews ever since. Unless the anti-Semitism of the Gospels and Acts are eliminated from the NT…pogroms are sure to come again to innocent Jews.

 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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02 June 2009 12:47
 

‘Since there is no god, Jesus wasn’t god and didn’t speak to Paul in a vision, so he did make that up’

Isn’t that just a priori statement that Theists make in the opposite GAD? You know there is not, and they know that there is?

wink

 
 
LogicAndReason
 
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LogicAndReason
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02 June 2009 13:18
 
hannahfriend - 01 June 2009 11:15 PM

Another big problem Jews have (and probably had way back when too) is the idea of God taking human form.  The awesome, unfathomable, almighty God could not be encompassed in a man.  Even Moses, prophets, and annointed kings were imperfect human beings, not incarnations of God.

Excellent point…quite correct

hannahfriend - 01 June 2009 11:15 PM

So, yet another example of how early Christians, beginning with Paul, reworked the Jewish beliefs to cast Jesus as their messiah.  I’m not saying Paul was “making it up,” but his vision of Jesus was definitely a huge paradigm shift.

I think the letter-writer was promoting himself as a sophist by applying exegesis to the Torah to sycretize it with a savior cult in Asia Minor.  His reference to Jews in Galatians 1 and 2 that came before him suggest that other Jews were already mixing and matching.  I don’t think anyone was trying to decieve…they thought this all to be ‘revealed.’  One reason I suspect that the Jesus character was a legend and not a real man is the ability the myth-makers had to create all the devine behaviors.  Where are the witnesses of any of these miracles?  Notice Paul never mentions any.

hannahfriend - 01 June 2009 11:15 PM

For the most part, fortunately, Christian society has come a long way from when Jews were vilified as Christ killers.

Believe this long enough and wait for the next pogrom.  The Gospels, especially The Gospel of John, are very anti-Semitic (because the budding church was in competition with the new Rabbinical movement about the time the Gospels were written and the end of the 1st century/beginning of the 2nd).  Read the history books.  Jews, Muslims and Christians all lived quite well together once on the Iberian penninsual…until the power changed and people started to die.  Christians have many stretches of history where they seem to be eccumenical towards Jews…then the next thing you know, they are expelling or killing them…the formula is in the NT.

hannahfriend - 01 June 2009 11:15 PM

Today, many Christians believe that Jews are just ignorant of Jesus or stubborn.  If they only listened and learned what God had done through Jesus, their religion would be completed.  Many good-hearted Christians just don’t realize how insulting this sounds.

What data do you offer to assess the general feelings of an average Christian.  I can tell you as a former Christian, they are ignorant.  Ignorant of Judaism, ignorant of history, and ignorant of their own faith.  We can never dismiss the past of it’s antecedents.  Shalom hanna

 
GAD
 
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02 June 2009 13:47
 
eudemonia - 02 June 2009 10:47 AM

‘Since there is no god, Jesus wasn’t god and didn’t speak to Paul in a vision, so he did make that up’

Isn’t that just a priori statement that Theists make in the opposite GAD? You know there is not, and they know that there is?

wink

If people want to believe in magic what I can I do except tell them there isn’t any.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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02 June 2009 13:57
 
LogicAndReason - 02 June 2009 09:26 AM
GAD - 01 June 2009 12:00 PM

[I don’t think I disagree with anything you’ve said above. Do you think Jesus form the Gospels and Matthew, Mark and Luke were Jews?

That is a good question…Jesus, the intentional object of some writer’s who wrote in Greek prose and were later labeled Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (first reference was in Against Heresies by Irenaeus of Lyons - Not a Jew in 180 CE) was presented as Jewish…but Paul never refers to Jesus as a Jew…does he? Jesus is just the Jewish Attis as far as I can tell. The name Jesus (Joshua in Hebrew) was the 3rd most common Hebrew Male name of the 1st century…kind of like calling a new savior ‘Bill’ today. If Jesus actually was a man who lived, history didn’t notice him. You can’t find a single 1st century references to him. Later references, such as Tacitus, are about Christians…not Jesus, and parrot Christian claims. Did a man named Jesus actually live? Too little evidence to be sure.

Here is one you can bank on…the Gospels, the first of which was Mark (circa 70 CE) were not written by ignorant fishermen from Galilee who were illiterate and spoke Aramaic…they were written in beautiful Greek prose. The authors were men of leisure and education. All we can reference is the redacted and interpolated copies we have today…there are no originals and the copies were passed generations by generations through the hands of scribes…Mark 16:9-20 and the end of John 7, beginning of John 8 (Jesus saving the adultress) are absolutely known interpolations and are noted this way in many study bibles…do you trust these redactions about a man who was not recorded historically?

Christianity stole the Jewish Epic to claim a history/epistemology. Christians have been trying to eradicate the Jews ever since. Unless the anti-Semitism of the Gospels and Acts are eliminated from the NT…pogroms are sure to come again to innocent Jews.

Have you read “How Jesus became a Christian” it’s little hit and miss but it has some good arguments about why they were Jews.

As for Jesus being real, you seem to believe he needed to do something great and be noticed by history, I think he could of been not so great but did something that mystified as it got passed around.

 
 
LogicAndReason
 
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02 June 2009 14:27
 
GAD - 02 June 2009 11:57 AM

Have you read “How Jesus became a Christian” it’s little hit and miss but it has some good arguments about why they were Jews.

Not yet…but thanks for the recommendation…I will read it.

GAD - 02 June 2009 11:57 AM

As for Jesus being real, you seem to believe he needed to do something great and be noticed by history, I think he could of been not so great but did something that mystified as it got passed around.

Both equally possible. It’s the narrative surrounding this supposed Jesus character…pretty hard to feed 5000 men and possible another 8000 or so women and children without that getting noticed historically. Pretty hard to be conviced for sedition in front of a Roman governor and that not get recorded somewhere. It is very telling that the Jews of his time never heard or wrote about him. The furthest stretch to me, BTW, is that a man from Galilee was also the savior…this would have been an insult to Jews of that time.

My posit, oral traditions grew into a story about a man named Jesus that incorporated many historical anchors (JtheB, Herod, Herod Antipas, Pilate) throughout the 1st century. There were many varied versions and it grew in depth until a community…we call Mark…wrote a narrative to this oral tradition to make points of theology and to create an apostolic tradition back to the supposed founder. Read Paul carefully and you will see that the revealed Jesus was nothing like the narratives of Mark and the later evangelists.

[ Edited: 02 June 2009 14:29 by LogicAndReason]
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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02 June 2009 14:31
 

One mans magic is another mans miracle. I think it is a miracle that Bruce Burleson is not here witnessing. Or is He??!!

 
 
GAD
 
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02 June 2009 14:34
 
eudemonia - 02 June 2009 12:31 PM

One mans magic is another mans miracle. I think it is a miracle that Bruce Burleson is not here witnessing. Or is He??!!

With all the name changing (hint) who can keep up smile

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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02 June 2009 14:37
 

Ha! Got me. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. Why don’t you change yours to DAG. We will never know.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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02 June 2009 15:55
 

Logic and Reason wrote:

What data do you offer to assess the general feelings of an average Christian.  I can tell you as a former Christian, they are ignorant.  Ignorant of Judaism, ignorant of history, and ignorant of their own faith.  We can never dismiss the past of it’s antecedents.  Shalom hanna

You are correct to point out that I speak just from my experience…not a wide sample.  I was raised a reform Jew, became atheist as a young adult, then became Christian at 40, now am agnostic.  My Christian friends in my former Bible study group knew I had Jewish background, so perhaps they were being carefully kind.  They definitely weren’t ignorant of the Bible itself, but never read any criticism and knew little about Judaism. 

I agree that we can’t know how much of the Bible might be historical and how much is legend.  Assuming it is true that Paul was originally a Jew who had persecuted Christians (a huge assumption, I know), I think he might have become anti-semitic as a sort of self-hate or repulsion against his own deeds, his own “stiff-necked” past.  Of course, we’ll never know Paul’s true bio.

 
LogicAndReason
 
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LogicAndReason
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02 June 2009 19:54
 
hannahfrie - 02 June 2009 01:55 PM

You are correct to point out that I speak just from my experience…not a wide sample. I was raised a reform Jew, became atheist as a young adult, then became Christian at 40, now am agnostic. My Christian friends in my former Bible study group knew I had Jewish background, so perhaps they were being carefully kind. They definitely weren’t ignorant of the Bible itself, but never read any criticism and knew little about Judaism.

My wife is Jewish and love both her and her family. These last 10 years I’ve spent much time studying Jews history, as a people, a culture and a religion…I too am secular. Being married to my wonderful Jewish wife opened my eyes to Christian bigotry and anti-Semitism. You are right to say that all is quite now…but Jews cannot afford to let their guard down. I remember weeping the first time I read Elie Weisel’s account of the Nazis storming into his town…the kids were all enjoying Purim when the soldiers began to i drag families away. The same Germany that fathered great Jewish minds like Freud were slaughtering them less than a century later. The seeds to this are written in books that are titled Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts.

hannahfrie - 02 June 2009 01:55 PM

I agree that we can’t know how much of the Bible might be historical and how much is legend. Assuming it is true that Paul was originally a Jew who had persecuted Christians (a huge assumption, I know), I think he might have become anti-semitic as a sort of self-hate or repulsion against his own deeds, his own “stiff-necked” past. Of course, we’ll never know Paul’s true bio.

Karl Marx was a self-loathing Jew as well and that is hard to understand (his family was rabbis for generations). Paul’s stories of persecuting Jews may well have been hyperbole on his part…a sort of resume building. After all, how could a Pharisee from Jerusalem (remember that the High Priest was a Sadducee) be ordered or allowed to go to Damascus (a foreign country not controlled or under the jurisdiction of the HP or the Temple powers) to arrest other Jews…this is not historically feasible.

In the Gospel of John, the term “The Jews” is used 72 times (compared with a total of 14 times in the other 3 Gospels). This reflects the end of the 1st century, beginning of the 2nd century time period in which this gospel was written. There was a fierce competition between rabbis and Christians and John reflects that…making the term “The Jews” a pejorative. As long as people raise their children reading such hatred, violence will be the result. May we look to the day that religions are realized for the anachronisms they already are. Thanks Hannah

[edit to clean up quotes]

[ Edited: 02 June 2009 19:57 by Andrew]
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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03 June 2009 03:41
 
LogicAndReason - 02 June 2009 12:27 PM
GAD - 02 June 2009 11:57 AM

Have you read “How Jesus became a Christian” it’s little hit and miss but it has some good arguments about why they were Jews.

Not yet…but thanks for the recommendation…I will read it.

GAD - 02 June 2009 11:57 AM

As for Jesus being real, you seem to believe he needed to do something great and be noticed by history, I think he could of been not so great but did something that mystified as it got passed around.

Both equally possible. It’s the narrative surrounding this supposed Jesus character…pretty hard to feed 5000 men and possible another 8000 or so women and children without that getting noticed historically. Pretty hard to be conviced for sedition in front of a Roman governor and that not get recorded somewhere. It is very telling that the Jews of his time never heard or wrote about him. The furthest stretch to me, BTW, is that a man from Galilee was also the savior…this would have been an insult to Jews of that time.

My posit, oral traditions grew into a story about a man named Jesus that incorporated many historical anchors (JtheB, Herod, Herod Antipas, Pilate) throughout the 1st century. There were many varied versions and it grew in depth until a community…we call Mark…wrote a narrative to this oral tradition to make points of theology and to create an apostolic tradition back to the supposed founder. Read Paul carefully and you will see that the revealed Jesus was nothing like the narratives of Mark and the later evangelists.

If you read the book let me know what you think. No issue that Paul’s Jesus was very different then the Gospel Jesus.

 
 
GAD
 
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03 June 2009 03:45
 
eudemonia - 02 June 2009 12:37 PM

Ha! Got me. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. Why don’t you change yours to DAG. We will never know.

Now that the name “Bruce Burleson” is available maybe I can change to that and raise some hell smile

 
 
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