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Noah’s Ark with sources revealed

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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10 December 2009 12:28
 

Some time ago, scholars came to realize that the flood myth is actually an intentional weaving together of two of the four sources (Documentary Hypothesis) that they’d found running throughout the Torah. 
One version was from what had come to be called the “J” source, because, among other identifying characteristics, that source always refers to God as Jehovah…the other from the “P” source, because, in general, it deals with things of concern to Priests (chronologies, geneologies, measurements, etc).
“P” is the later version, of course, because “J” tells of Noah building an altar and sacrificing clean animals on it…activities jealously defended by priests as duties solely of the priesthood. A priesthood which didn’t even exist until the time of Moses.

In Who Wrote the Bible, Richard Elliot Friedman separated out the two sources in the flood myth for us.  If you read first the plain text all the way through…and then go back and read the bold all the way through, you’ll see that each is a continuous narrative, able to stand on it’s own as a complete story.  It won’t take long and offers a dandy example of the Documentary Hypothesis: 

Gen 6:
5 And Yahweh saw that the evil of humans was great in the earth and all the inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the day.
6 And Yahweh regretted that he had made humans in the earth, and he was grieved to his heart.
7 And Yahweh said, “I shall wipe out the humans which I have created from the face of the earth, from human to beast to creeping thing to bird of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.
8 But Noah found favor in Yahweh’s eyes.
9 These are the generations of Noah:  Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations.  Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah sired three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japeth.
11 And the Earth was corrupted before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God saw the earth, and here it was corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its ways on the earth.
13 And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them, and here I am going to destroy them with the earth.
14 Make yourself an ark of gopher wood, make rooms with the ark, and pitch it outside and inside with pitch.
15 And this is how you shall make it: three hundred cubits the length of the ark, fifty cubits its width, and thirty cubits its height.
16 You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from the top, and you shall make an entrance to the ark in its side.  You shall make lower, second, and third stories for it.
17 And here I am bringing the flood, water over the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under the heavens.  Everything which is on the land will die.
18 And I shall establish my covenant with you.  And you shall come to the ark, you and your sons and you wife and your son’s wives with you.
19 And of all the living, of all flesh, you shall bring two to the ark to keep alive with you, they shall be male and female.
20 Of the birds according to their kind, and of the beasts according to their kind, and of all the creeping things of the earth according to their kind, two of each will come to you to keep alive.
21 And you, take for yourself of all food which will be eaten and gather it to you, and it well be for you and for them for food.”
22 And Noah did according to all that God commanded him—so he did.

Genesis 7

1 And Yahweh said to Noah, “Come, you and all your household, to the ark, for I have seen you as righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of all the clean beasts, take yourself seven pairs, man and his woman; and of the beasts which are not clean, two, man and his woman
3 Also of the birds of the heavens seven pairs, male and female, to keep alive seed on the face of the earth”
5 And Noah did according to all that Yahweh had commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old, and the flood was on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his son’s wives with him came to the ark from before the waters of the flood.
8 Of the clean beasts and of the beasts which were not clean, and of the birds and of all those which creep upon the earth,
9 Two of each came to Noah to the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And seven days later the waters of the flood were on the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
12 And there was rain on the earth, forty days and forty nights.
13 In this very day, Noah and Shem, Ham, and Japeth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife and his son’s three wives with them came to the ark,
14 They and all the living things according to their kind, and all the beasts according to their kind, and all the creeping things that creep on the earth according to their kind, and all the birds according to their kind, and every winged bird.
15 And they came to Noah to the ark, two of each, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 And those which came were male and female, some of all flesh came, as God had commanded him.
  And Yahweh closed it for him.
17 And the flood was on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and the waters multiplied and raised the ark, and it was lifted from the earth.
18 And the waters grew strong and multiplied greatly on the earth, and the ark went on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters grew very very strong on the earth, and they covered all the high mountains that are under all the heavens.
20 Fifteen cubits above, the waters grew stronger, and they covered the mountains.
21 And all flesh, those that creep on the earth, the birds, the beasts, and the wild animals, and all the swarming things that swarm on the earth, and all the humans expired.
22 Everything that had the breathing spirit of life in its nostrils, everything that was on the dry ground, died.
23 And he wiped out all the substance that was on the face of the earth, from human to beast, to creeping thing, and to bird of the heavens, and they were wiped out from the earth, and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left.
24 And the waters grew strong on the earth a hundred fifty days.

Genesis 8

1 And God remembered Noah and all the living, and all the beasts that were with him in the ark, and God passed a wind over the earth, and the waters were decreased.
2 And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were shut,
and the rain was restrained from the heavens.
3 And the waters receded from the earth continually, and the waters were abated at the end of a hundred fifty days.
4 And the ark rested, in the seventh month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters continued receding until the tenth month;  in the tenth month, on the first of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared.

6 And it was at the end of the forty days, and Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made.
7 And he sent out a raven, and it went back and forth until the waters dried up from the earth.
8 And he sent out a dove from him to see whether the waters had eased from the face of the earth.
9 And the dove did not find a resting place for its foot, and it returned to him to the ark, for waters were on the face of the earth, and he put out his hand and took it and brought it to him to the ark.
10 And he waited seven more days, and he again sent out a dove from the ark. 11 And the dove came to him at evening time, and there was an olive leaf torn off in its mouth, and Noah knew that the waters had eased from the earth.
12 And he waited seven more days, and he sent out a dove, and it did not return to him ever again.
13 And it was in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the waters dried from the earth.  And Noah turned back the covering of the ark and looked, and here the face of the earth had dried.
14 And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth dried up.
15 And God spoke to Noah, saying,
16 “Go out from the ark, you and your wife and your son’s wives with you.
17 And the living things that are with you, of all flesh, of the birds, and of the beasts, and of all the creeping things that creep on the earth, that go out with you, shall swarm in the earth and be fruitful and multiply in the earth.”
18 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his son’s wives went out.
19 All the living things, all the creeping things and all the birds, all that creep on the earth, by their families, they went out of he ark.

20 And Noah built an alter to Yahweh, and he took some of each of the clean beasts and of each of the clean birds, and he offered sacrifices on the alter.
21 And Yahweh smelled the pleasant smell, and Yahweh said to his heart, “I shall not again curse the ground on man’s account, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from their youth, and I shall not again strike all the living as I have done.
22 All the rest of the days of the earth, seed and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

This is unique—that you’re able to separate two continuous rational narratives in a story.  And there are other clear examples in the Torah of the same sort of editing.  Pick a book, any book, and try to do the same with any part of it.

[ Edited: 10 December 2009 13:42 by Andrew]
 
 
GAD
 
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10 December 2009 13:37
 

His book is fantastic, it is on my highly recommended list.

 
 
Andrew
 
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10 December 2009 14:59
 
GAD - 10 December 2009 12:37 PM

His book is fantastic, it is on my highly recommended list.

(Andrew):  Yeah…it’s one of my favorite reads.  I’ve got some of this other stuff, too.  The Hidden Face of God is something I recommend.  The Bible with Sources Revealed is a great resource, too.

 
 
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11 December 2009 19:39
 
Daystar - 11 December 2009 06:10 PM

Before I begin to answer, a timeline . . .

B.C.E.

4026, Adam created

(Andrew):  End of conversation.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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11 December 2009 20:37
 

4026, Adam created

Well there it is, Daystar says. Must be the absolute truth. Nobody could possibly come up with such an elaborate timeline without it being perfectly accurrate.

So Adam was created about the same time that the Sumerians were learning how to brew beer? Interesting.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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11 December 2009 21:43
 

Reading and thinking about Daystar further, I am thinking that the reason he is so infatuated with numbers, like 7 and 12, is possibly because his age falls in between that range somewhere. I mean seriously, has he just started Sunday School or something? I am not sure my kids at about age 10 would have believed that Adam was created about 4,000 years ago. They would have probably laughed if I had told them that ,and then said something about the age of some of the dinosaurs or something.

Bizaar, is Daystar. Sorry about the rhymn, but I am sure God will understand.

 
 
GAD
 
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11 December 2009 23:27
 
eudemonia - 11 December 2009 07:37 PM

4026, Adam created

Well there it is, Daystar says. Must be the absolute truth. Nobody could possibly come up with such an elaborate timeline without it being perfectly accurrate.

So Adam was created about the same time that the Sumerians were learning how to brew beer? Interesting.

Mummmmmmmmmmm, beer!

 
 
Andrew
 
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12 December 2009 00:40
 
Daystar - 11 December 2009 06:42 PM

I have no doubt that you could take any variations of the two alleged portions and mix them up to come up with separate naratives to justify any other hypothesis as well. To me, this Documentary Hypothesis makes nearly, but not quite as much sense as Bible codes, which is pretty bad, actually.

Noah is born (5:28-30) Noah is 500 (5:32) God makes the pronouncement (6:1-3) God explains the situation (6:4-8) and then introduces the history of Noah. Since Noah had already been mentioned the history of Noah is having to do with the flood. Noah’s history as far as the flood. It isn’t a chronological account, strictly speaking. Chronologically speaking the statement at Genesis 6:3 was given in the year 2490 B.C.E. Keep in mind that Noah’s being 500 years at some point in the narrative can be figured as being 100 years to the flood, since Noah was then 600, but there is no indication that Noah had been told about the 120 years. God wasn’t talking to Noah at that time. (Hebrews 11:7) Noah had no idea about this timeframe. Noah was given enough time to have three sons, for those sons to grow until adulthood and become married and then build an ark about the size of the Titanic, preach to the unrepentant people around him and wait for all the animals to get there. So it isn’t that Noah had 120 years to build an ark, it is that he had about 100 years to do all of that. It can be estimated that left about 40 or 50 years to build the ark given the factor of his sons being born and raised; and the birth of his grandsons after the flood confirm.

(Andrew):  Of course—like your timeline—this current post has nothing at all to do with the very obvious intentional combination of two separate flood traditions in Genesis.  Which is the subject of the thread.
You’re not going to disappoint me…are you, Daystar?  Is this the best you can do?

 
 
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12 December 2009 01:03
 
Daystar - 11 December 2009 06:44 PM
Andrew - 11 December 2009 06:39 PM
Daystar - 11 December 2009 06:10 PM

Before I begin to answer, a timeline . . .

B.C.E.

4026, Adam created

(Andrew):  End of conversation.

Well, that was easy!

(Andrew):  I can imagine your relief.

 
 
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12 December 2009 08:43
 
Daystar - 12 December 2009 01:02 AM

Actually, the timeline was given to demonstrate that…the rewards are testable by a comparison with astronomical charts and secular history, that is if they had a fuller understanding of scripture.

(Andrew):  Absolute gibberish.  Astronomical charts and secular history don’t address the obvious conflation of two separate flood accounts in Genesis.
If you can’t deal with the OP, please get off the stage.

[edit—I missed this in my disappointment at your first paragraph.  Perhaps you do feel that you’ve addressed the OP:

Daystar - 12 December 2009 01:02 AM

The response to which you are disappointed with (sic), explains the intentional combination of two alleged separate flood accounts.

(Andrew):  I’m sorry—unless “Godidit” is your explanation, I don’t see that it does.  And it doesn’t begin to address “why” the two accounts were combined.
Would you care to try again, because that’s unacceptable.
 
And they’re not “alleged” separate flood accounts—as any person can see, they are separate flood accounts.

[ Edited: 12 December 2009 12:26 by Andrew]
 
 
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12 December 2009 12:09
 
Daystar - 11 December 2009 06:42 PM

I have no doubt that you could take any variations of the two alleged portions and mix them up to come up with separate naratives to justify any other hypothesis as well.

(Andrew):  I have no idea what you’re talking about, but you cannot take a chapter from any other book—that I know of—and separate it into two rational, coherent narratives.  If you think that you can, please give an example.
But that’s only the beginning—that’s the nice thing about the Documentary Hypothesis: it’s the agreement of the accumulation of the evidence.
Freidman again—pardon the typos:

The P story (the one in boldface) consistently refers to the deity as God.  The J story always uses the name YahwehP refers to the sex of the animals with the words “male and female”.  J uses the terms “man and his woman” as well as “male and female”.  P says that everything “expired”, J says that everything “died”.
The two versions do not just differ on terminology.  They differ on actual details of the story.  P has one pair of each kind of animal.  J has seven pairs of clean animals and one pair of unclean animals (Clean means fit for sacrifice.  Sheep are clean; lions are unclean).  P pictures the flood as lasting a year (370 days).  J says it was forty days and forty nights.  P has Noah send out a raven.  J says a dove.  P obviously has a concern for ages, dates and measurements in cubits.  J does not.
Probably the most remarkable difference of all between the two is their different ways of picturing God.  It is not just that they call the deity by different names.  J pictures a deity who can regret things that He has done, which raises interesting theological questions, such as whether an all-powerful, all-knowing being would ever regret past actions.  It pictures a deity who can be “grieved to his heart”, who personally closes the ark and smells Noah’s sacrifice.  This anthropomorphic quality of J is virtually entirely lacking in P.  Thre God is regarded more as a transcendental controller of the universe.
(...)
And even that is not the whole picture.  The J flood story’s language, details, and conception of God are consistent with the language, details,and conception of God in other J stories.  The P flood story is consistent with other P stories.  And so on.
The investigators found each of the sources to be a consistent collection of stories, poems and laws.

Daystar - 12 December 2009 01:02 AM

To me, this Documentary Hypothesis makes nearly, but not quite as much sense as Bible codes…

(Andrew):  That can only be because you know nothing about it.  Particularly if you think something like this refutes it:

Noah is born (5:28-30) Noah is 500 (5:32) God makes the pronouncement (6:1-3) God explains the situation (6:4-8) and then introduces the history of Noah. Since Noah had already been mentioned the history of Noah is having to do with the flood. Noah’s history as far as the flood. It isn’t a chronological account, strictly speaking. Chronologically speaking the statement at Genesis 6:3 was given in the year 2490 B.C.E. Keep in mind that Noah’s being 500 years at some point in the narrative can be figured as being 100 years to the flood, since Noah was then 600, but there is no indication that Noah had been told about the 120 years. God wasn’t talking to Noah at that time. (Hebrews 11:7) Noah had no idea about this timeframe. Noah was given enough time to have three sons, for those sons to grow until adulthood and become married and then build an ark about the size of the Titanic, preach to the unrepentant people around him and wait for all the animals to get there. So it isn’t that Noah had 120 years to build an ark, it is that he had about 100 years to do all of that. It can be estimated that left about 40 or 50 years to build the ark given the factor of his sons being born and raised; and the birth of his grandsons after the flood confirm.

 
 
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12 December 2009 23:53
 
Daystar - 12 December 2009 12:36 AM
eudemonia - 11 December 2009 08:43 PM

Reading and thinking about Daystar further, I am thinking that the reason he is so infatuated with numbers, like 7 and 12, is possibly because his age falls in between that range somewhere. I mean seriously, has he just started Sunday School or something? I am not sure my kids at about age 10 would have believed that Adam was created about 4,000 years ago. They would have probably laughed if I had told them that ,and then said something about the age of some of the dinosaurs or something.

Bizaar, is Daystar. Sorry about the rhymn, but I am sure God will understand.

4,000 years, huh? You know . . . I consider myself mathematically retarded but maybe you ought to have had your kids at about age 10 give you some math tips. Try about 6,000.

I recommend taking a geology course or visiting your closest museum of natural history.  There is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood in the past 6000 years.

 
Andrew
 
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13 December 2009 08:47
 
Daystar - 12 December 2009 11:32 PM
hannahfriend - 12 December 2009 10:53 PM

I recommend taking a geology course or visiting your closest museum of natural history.  There is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood in the past 6000 years.

You mean like whales in the deserts, sea creatures in the mountains . . . stuff like that?

(Andrew):  Quite natural—observable—geological phenomena (sea beds drying up and earthquakes raising mountains where none have been) would account for any of that. 
You’ll have to do better.

 
 
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13 December 2009 08:49
 
hannahfriend - 12 December 2009 10:53 PM

There is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood in the past 6000 years.

(Andrew):  So far as I know, there is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood.  Period.

 
 
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13 December 2009 10:12
 
Andrew - 13 December 2009 07:49 AM
hannahfriend - 12 December 2009 10:53 PM

There is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood in the past 6000 years.

(Andrew):  So far as I know, there is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood.  Period.

It guess it depends on which world you live in.

 
Andrew
 
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13 December 2009 10:25
 
Brick Bungalow - 13 December 2009 09:12 AM
Andrew - 13 December 2009 07:49 AM
hannahfriend - 12 December 2009 10:53 PM

There is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood in the past 6000 years.

(Andrew):  So far as I know, there is no physical evidence of a world-wide flood.  Period.

It guess it depends on which world you live in.

(Andrew):  Good point!

 
 
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