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THE JOY OF ATHEISM

 
chowbok
 
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chowbok
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22 February 2010 02:56
 
Bruce Burleson - 21 February 2010 11:32 PM

You cannot be serious about this.  I’m a non-Catholic Christian, and have no real beef with Catholicism. But dogma is your middle name. You have three sources of authority - scripture, tradition, and the magisterium of the church (which is the teaching authority of the church, which is the bishops, which is mainly the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, sitting ex cathedra). You go against these and you are no longer Catholic. With 2000 years of ecclesiastical authority staring you in the face, there is no way that “freedom of choice is the hallmark of Catholicism.”  That dog won’t hunt.

What happened to that hallmark in the Inquisition?

Bruce,

Nice catch. 

Yes.  In fact, the way I see it, everybody, including atheists and all other religions are Protestants.  But, that concept is pretty complex and could be seen as negative so I decided not to go there.  From an editing point of view I probably could have left out the CIA website.  But you have to admit it’s pretty good.

As to a discussion on the complexities of the Catholic Church – it won’t win any hearts here.  In fact, it would probably put most people to sleep.  It’s interesting enough stuff if you are inclined towards very precise logical thinking.  For me, it is inspiring, but to most it can be rather dull; pity.

But let’s face it, you guys are atheists.  You believe in nothing – only – you are drawn here to The Reason Project by what you perceive to be the group-minded mentality of people who think like you do.  Which of course, as a Catholic, I see you as simply lost sheep bleating plaintively to the intellectual manipulation of Sam Harris, “snake-oil salesman.”

My goal, as I have stated elsewhere on this forum (under another name), is to undermine the atheist foundation by using reason against reason (if you are new here I suggest you do some reading). 

Bruce, the Dogma of the church would slow me down and get in the way; it is without doubt a tightrope I walk.  I’m very aware of the presence of the Dogma and I must respect it no matter what – but that is my problem and not the readers’.  I have great liberty with my pen but there are lines that cannot be crossed.  So, yes, I “freely” choose to steer the conversation in safer directions.  At any rate, it would do no good to preach and I’m not asking for money nor am I trying to poke fun at you.  I’m just looking for flow and style and little mix of poetry and sass to get my point across.  Which is: atheists are wrong and God is right.  What could be simpler?

[ Edited: 22 February 2010 03:12 by chowbok]
 
chowbok
 
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chowbok
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22 February 2010 03:00
 
teuchter - 22 February 2010 01:28 AM

You can’t possibly mean this.  Before rejecting bestiality, did you “taste it?”  Before rejecting the idea of laying in bed all day and buying every single thing advertised on an informercial during a 24 hour period, did you try i?.  Even for 3 hours?  Have you tried, and I mean really tried—praying to zeus? to allah? to the chac mool?  No?  Then I guess you haven’t made a really informed decision about catholicism.  Until you’ve sacrificed a virgin to a volcano, you can’t possibly be sure that catholicism is for you, can you?

teuchter, old friend.  It’s good to see you again.  I see you have a dog.  Reverse that beast and you have a God!  Hah!

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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22 February 2010 04:14
 

It will be up to each and every atheist to find his own way; solitary and alone, the tragic figure in a tragic play, proud and independent—mindful of the world and wary of God.  Ah, what a fine upstanding conceptual being he will become; adrift in a universe full of wonders and yet, failing to see it.  And that’s not funny either.

Yawn.

Mr. Chowbok makes a dull chewtoy.

 
 
can zen
 
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can zen
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22 February 2010 05:40
 

This was a nice summation of your version of my predicament chowbok,

What you are is an amazing and extraordinary creature that has one foot in space and time and another in the world of endlessly living and vibrant souls.  You are miraculous.  You are wondrous – but still not wise.

You do sound wise, but let me inform you that in fact I have both my feet in the active flow of spacetime and I have no need for your dichotomous brand of theistic fantasy.  I guess that you have chosen to speak for god on this forum and we will be endlessly blessed by your chocolate covered preaches. You might find chowbok that ‘speaking for god” will expose the actual limits of his omniscience - as directing me to the “newadvent” site exposed the handicap of intellect under which the catholic church operates.  Your dilemma seems obvious to me, are you going to defend god or the roman catholic church because between these two man-made word-orifices there is no common ground . . . but since you speak for god, obviously you know more than I do.

Btw, I was not trying to shock you, I just asked how you reconcile the visual image of god’s ass in the halls of the vatican - and I’m not talking about the pope now.  But since you gave me god’s feelings on the subject, I guess that will have to do, since you agree with everything god says.

Bob

 
 
can zen
 
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can zen
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22 February 2010 05:43
 

Oh, I forgot to let you know chowbok, that ‘god’ is the intersubjective word-processor in our collective brains.  Sorry about that!

Bob

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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22 February 2010 13:22
 
chowbok - 22 February 2010 01:56 AM

But let’s face it, you guys are atheists.  You believe in nothing

Well that seems like a fairly assumptive projection.

 
 
W. Collins
 
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W. Collins
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22 February 2010 13:28
 
Jefe - 22 February 2010 12:22 PM
chowbok - 22 February 2010 01:56 AM

But let’s face it, you guys are atheists.  You believe in nothing

Well that seems like a fairly assumptive projection.

People like this make you appreciate Bruce a bit more don’t they?

 
 
chowbok
 
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chowbok
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22 February 2010 13:29
 

Interesting reactions; naturally, I don’t speak for God but I will defend Him in my own way.  If God is Love – a simple enough concept – it should be enough to just point that out.

Harris and his ilk attempt to apply logic and reason to a subject matter that they claim is “religion” when in fact they seek to marginalize the subject to that of popular cultures view of it.  Which, let’s face it, most people know very little of the church that they may have been affiliated with at birth or throughout their youth.  So, much like new-age religions, Harris and Dawkins feed on half-truths, suppositions and the current media’s attention to it to garner attention.   

What Harris and Dawkins don’t want you to know is that the subject of God has been gone over with a fine tooth comb for centuries.  The New Advent website is testimony to this.  Reading the site closely you can see that all things have been considered rationally and reasonably by men (and woman) smarter than Harris, Dawkins or me.  For example, Harris and Dawkins rely on popular culture to paint a false image of the Church and the Christian clash against the sciences, and an excellent proof of this “confusion” is the Astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus.  I challenge you to go to the New Advent web site and read about Copernicus.  If you don’t come away with the words “I did not know that,” I would be very surprised.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm

The last thing Harris or Dawkins would want you to know is that a systematic, long term logical and reasonable approach to the subject of God has been, and still is, an ongoing project.  And this has been going on for at least 2000 years.  This length and depth of this apostolic work is breathtakingly brilliant and the primary driving force behind it is the Roman Catholic Church.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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22 February 2010 13:32
 
chowbok - 22 February 2010 12:29 PM

If God is Love – a simple enough concept – it should be enough to just point that out.


IF (as you say) god is love, then is love also god?

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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22 February 2010 13:57
 

‘What Harris and Dawkins don’t want you to know is that the subject of God has been gone over with a fine tooth comb for centuries’

ROTFLMAO! NO!! Please say it isn’t so! They are actually withholding that from us!??? Shame on those bastards. Who would have possibly thunk in their wildest dreams that the subject of ‘God’ has been gone over for centuries???!!

I am fucking crestfallen, and I will never read anything buy those bastards again!

Thanks for that, it is a true revelation.

 
 
Rigamortus
 
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Rigamortus
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22 February 2010 13:58
 
Jefe - 22 February 2010 12:32 PM
chowbok - 22 February 2010 12:29 PM

If God is Love – a simple enough concept – it should be enough to just point that out.


IF (as you say) god is love, then is love also god?

Of course it is.  And one statement is as meaningless as the other.  But they sure sound pretty don’t they?

 
 
W. Collins
 
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W. Collins
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22 February 2010 14:37
 
Jefe - 22 February 2010 12:32 PM
chowbok - 22 February 2010 12:29 PM

If God is Love – a simple enough concept – it should be enough to just point that out.


IF (as you say) god is love, then is love also god?

Hmmm… If love is god, and god is love, then that must also mean that gay love is god, and god is gay love.

 
 
can zen
 
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can zen
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22 February 2010 16:33
 

I don’t think you are capable of seeing the contradiction in which you dwell chowbok.  As pointed out earlier, the New Advent site proclaims its own version of the theory of evolution (which includes god, heaven, and souls in its framework) and then you keep claiming that Roman Catholicism is perfectly compatible with science.  What you are actually saying is that the catholic theology is superior to science, but it will accept the limited views offered by science as fitting awkwardly within the RC dogma.  Again from a non-theistic perspective, either science is closer to the truth or RC theology is closer to the truth, these are two incompatible views.

I need not find out anything more about Copernicus having read extensively on his life and his work, but I certainly won’t take the New Advent version of events as unbiased or authentically informative . . .  after all, those people think in the same way that you do.  I’m surprised that you haven’t brought up the life of Newton over that of Copernicus, after all, everyone knows that Nicholas was a priest or a monk, but Isaac was apparently a scientist.  It was in a brief, one year period that Newton discovered the prinicples of motion and graviation when he was in his early 20’s . . . he spent most of the rest of his 80 year life trying to interpret the gospels of christianity so that they reflected his newly discovered scientific knowledge.  He failed to produce anything substantive in those last 55 years of biblical study - that should tell us something.

Unfortunately chowbok, you seem to have a persistent conspiracy theory paranoia about the motives of Harris and Dawkins.  There is no conspiracy to keep us atheists out of christian dogmatic thinking as displayed so openly in New Advent (are you a writer for that site?).  As I said before, Harris and Dawkins would encourage others to read the sort of convoluted reasoning that passes for intelligence in places like that.  We are not sheep bleating at the feet of our idols, unlike what you and your relationship with Jesus must be. 

Btw, love is the intersubjective emotion that happens when we use the word-processors in our collective brains, so ‘love’ is not god, but it is how we happen to feel when we use god to express ourselves.  The notion that “god is love” would give some sort of metaphysical existence to love itself, this is an entirely mistaken view of reality.  If you can accept that material reality is expressed (as matter in space and time) on the foundation of actual spacetime, then all “things” become events, and love is just another kind of event in the reality of spacetime.  But an event like a person must be alive in order to experience what love is, without the living, phenomenal event known as a human subject to make another event like love possible, there is no such “thing” as love (and, of course, there is no such thing as god [living word-processor] either).  Perhaps you are incapable of intellectually comprehending what these words of mine (these bits of god) are actually attempting to communicate?  In that case, you will have to be satisfied with your fantasy version of love and your fantasy version of god.  Maybe you are just overestimating the cosmic scope of your own intelligence?

Bob

 
 
Lapin Diabolique
 
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Lapin Diabolique
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22 February 2010 17:58
 
Bruce Burleson - 21 February 2010 11:32 PM
chowbok - 21 February 2010 05:26 PM

  No Dogma ties my mind as it does yours.  Freedom of choice is the hallmark of Catholicism.

You cannot be serious about this…...., there is no way that “freedom of choice is the hallmark of Catholicism.”  That dog won’t hunt.

What happened to that hallmark in the Inquisition?

Mr. B, you are missing the point.
There are, and always have been, a variety of choices on offer by the Church.
In regards to the inquisition, I believe the choice was; either persisting in your heresy, by remaining a Jew, homosexual, sorcerer or overly critical person and being tortured beyond the point of madness before being burned alive, or confessing to your sinful behavior, make known your accomplices in your theological crimes, and subsequently be strangled to death, prior to being burned.

I noticed that you fail to see such important choices as they were offered by Holy Mother Church for 500 glorious years.

Likewise, those pesky children, who make such a big hoopla about a bit of ass-rape by their Catholic guardians, also had a choice.
Instead of running to the police, like the little belly-aching pansies that they are, just because Father McItchyDick buggered them a couple of times, they were offered the choice to just shut up about this and get on with their lives.


Bruce,I would prefer it if you didn’t stoop to making a caricature out of Chowcock by misrepresenting his fine and benevolent organization.


Thus spake Lapin

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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22 February 2010 18:41
 
Lapin lascif - 22 February 2010 04:58 PM
Bruce Burleson - 21 February 2010 11:32 PM
chowbok - 21 February 2010 05:26 PM

  No Dogma ties my mind as it does yours.  Freedom of choice is the hallmark of Catholicism.

You cannot be serious about this…...., there is no way that “freedom of choice is the hallmark of Catholicism.”  That dog won’t hunt.

What happened to that hallmark in the Inquisition?

Mr. B, you are missing the point.
There are, and always have been, a variety of choices on offer by the Church.

Speaking of choices.  Several years ago, a Catholic school teacher posted on the Sam Harris Forum under the name Frankr.  The Rabbit will remember him.  Frankr told me that one of his favorite novels was ‘SILENCE’ by Shusaku Endo, a Japanese Catholic.  I think Endo got a famous literary award, so I took Frankr’s advice and read ‘SILENCE.’

If I remember right, the story was set in the Edo Period, at a time when Portugal was sending Catholic missionaries to Japan and the shogunate was clamping down on them.  ‘Clamping’ is putting it mildly.  To get off the hook, ‘alls’ one had to do was wipe one’s feet on a board that had an engraving of the Virgin on it.  Scuff, scuff, “It’s all bulllshit!” and no problemo!  You could go home.  This looked as easy as pie to me, but for the Japanese Christians?  Nooooooo.  Better to get yourself hung upside-down in a latrine, or tied to an old piling out at the low-tide mark.  “You down there!  Ready to wipe your feet on the Virgin?”  Nooooooo.  “You out there!  Guess what kind of tide we’re having tonight!  Ready to wipe your feet on the virgin?”  Nooooooooo.

Anyway, this kind of martyrdom really inspired Frankr.  ‘SILENCE’, the title of the novel, came from Endo’s observation that God watched all this without lending a hand, or saying so much as a peep.  And guess what.  After most of the humble converts have stuck to their guns to the bitter end,  the Portuguese missionaries themselves get a visit from the authorities and . . .

[ Edited: 22 February 2010 18:43 by unsmoked]
 
 
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