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Question for Atheists (+BM)

 
Nick_A
 
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Nick_A
Total Posts:  1484
Joined  30-03-2012
 
 
 
05 April 2012 17:54
 
Traces Elk - 05 April 2012 03:25 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

I refer to Simone Weil a lot

You refer to Simone Weill a lot, but so what. You didn’t bend any spoons, Nick. Waiting…. waiting…. connection timed out.

I just spent the last thirty seconds bending a spoon. Now I have a useless spoon becuse of you. I hope you’re satisfied.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  7081
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05 April 2012 18:12
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

 
 
Nick_A
 
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Nick_A
Total Posts:  1484
Joined  30-03-2012
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:23
 
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
Total Posts:  6373
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:30
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:50 PM
Dennis Campbell - 05 April 2012 03:37 PM

“Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things.

It is this kind of writing that exemplifies that religion is basically just an attempt at authoritarian governance, nothing more nor less.  All posited gods require obedience, as conveniently facilitated by selected humans, usually male, who most often occupy or claim some special status in their society.  No god has ever rewarded or punished, all that is done by people.  Religion also is inherently conservative, in the sense that people are constrained to obey, and not to threaten the social status quo; it is no accident that our social conservatives are also usually theistic believers.  When all of the elaborate and ill-defined religious text is boiled down, “obey me” remains.  Whatever significant changes man has made in his life in terms of longevity, health, nutrition, security and influence over the physical world as been due to challenging authority, not obedience.

Again you are assuming a personal God. Simone never referred to a personal but rather the expressions of consciousnes and universal laws. For example she is known as the patron saint of outsiders because she appreciated the depth of Christianity but was opposed to its descent into Christendom.

http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/bauer.htm

5.  In Simone Weil life, religion played a dominant role in the years following the mystical epiphanies she experienced in 1938.  Long before, however, her wish to partake in the suffering of the distressed led her to a life-style of extreme austerity.  It was under these circumstances that, in 1937, Simone Weil became increasingly attracted to Christianity, a religion she considered to be in its true essence a religion of slaves, and therefore in utter contradiction to the actual form it had taken in history.  On this assumption, Simone Weil objected against Catholicism—the denomination she knew best and respected the most —[21]  that it had ended by perverting itself for the sake of power.  The historical “double stain” on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22]  Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome.  As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv:  the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.

Buddhists believe in dharma which really means existing in conscious cooperation with universal laws. Simone is simply saying that we can function as creatures of reaction normal for organic life on earth serving a mechanical necessity or become a part of conscious life in the universe serving a higher more conscious necessity.

The essence of religion concerns this transition from a mechanical to a conscious necessity. In Christianity is the transition from the old man to the New Man. Why does this seem so absurd you?

How are you using the term conscious? More conscious meaning a higher level of consciousnesss of both dimension and structure? Or, as I’m understanding you, a totally nonsense form of absolute consciousnesss normally reserved for mystic beings? You seem to be using the term interchangeably as self awareness, meta self awareness, and a little bit of frequency of self focus and accuracy of self knowledge.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  7081
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:33
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

But history demonstrates that even if the majority of folks are christian in a given geopolitical region there are still wars.  Further, can you explain the necessity for objective morality to avoid warfare?

 
 
Nick_A
 
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Nick_A
Total Posts:  1484
Joined  30-03-2012
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:40
 
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:33 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

But history demonstrates that even if the majority of folks are christian in a given geopolitical region there are still wars.  Further, can you explain the necessity for objective morality to avoid warfare?

You are referring to the Christendom of Plato’s Cave that manifests in many forms and sects. Christianity is something else. I am referring to “grace.” Without the help of grace on human “being”, we remain as reactive creatures living with hypocrisy ready to kill on one day and heal on the next..

 
Dennis Campbell
 
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Dennis Campbell
Total Posts:  19830
Joined  20-07-2007
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:41
 

Again you are assuming a personal God. Simone never referred to a personal but rather the expressions of consciousnes and universal laws. For example she is known as the patron saint of outsiders because she appreciated the depth of Christianity but was opposed to its descent into Christendom.

No sir, I am referring to any gods posited by humans.  I am aware of the distinction between formal religions/churches and some belief in an abstract god, but it is a distinction without a difference. All beliefs in some god are mediated by humans, who conveniently (sarcasm implied) express and enforce such beliefs.  I’ve no issue with with human imagination (no sarcasm implied), but assert it is just that.  I’ve yet to hear or read about any god that does not also convey some set of prescriptions, proscriptions or other constraints imposed by people as a result. 

If I, and I’ve done that, gaze at a distant galaxy and try and grasp the distances and immensity, I’m humbled.  But I’ve no resulting disposition to somehow “obey” anything more than known physical limitations.  I’ve been alive for 73+ years, and will quite soon not be alive, and I’ve come to the position of knowing I don’t know much, will never “know” much, but it has been sufficient to, along with “good fortune” for having been born and raised in a relatively “affluent” society, to live this long. 

Your, or at least that’s my sense, positing of some external sentience however labelled, is a function of your needs, fears, and desires.  Not mine.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
Total Posts:  15809
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:43
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 02:53 PM
Nhoj Morley - 05 April 2012 02:35 PM

I have to ask: what is a triune universe?

I thought that word was otherwise unengaged.

The universe is structured on the interaction of three forces. This is what makes the Christian concept of God simultaneously as ONE and THREE impossible for dualism.

ONE is outside of time and space: the conscdious source containing every-thing in potential. Its division into three is the beginning of creation so ONE and THREE exist simultanously.

Every thing or fraction of a whole exists as a lawful result of the interaction of three forces referred to in many ways such as yin. yang, and Qi or affirming, denying and reconciling, These fractions of a higher whole are connected within a cosmos. Cosmoses and their relative expressions of consciousness are lawfully connected and taken as a whole, they comprise the triune universe

Correction, that constitutes the triume way of conceptualizing the universe.  Don’t go confusing the map with the territory.

 
burt
 
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burt
Total Posts:  15809
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:46
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 02:56 PM
Brick Bungalow - 05 April 2012 02:49 PM

Presuming upon the foibles of strangers is not an endorsement of ones own humility. You hoist your own petard sir.

I take the same view as Einstein. I’m openly wiling to admit my nothingness in relation to higher consciousness and intelligence. He wrote:

.Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

We know the inevitable law of the internet, that any flame war will eventually bring up Hitler and the Nazis and that will be the end of it. 

Is there perhaps another law lurking out there, that any appeals to woo will eventually bring up Einstein and/or quantum mechanics.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  7081
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:46
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:40 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:33 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

But history demonstrates that even if the majority of folks are christian in a given geopolitical region there are still wars.  Further, can you explain the necessity for objective morality to avoid warfare?

You are referring to the Christendom of Plato’s Cave that manifests in many forms and sects. Christianity is something else. I am referring to “grace.” Without the help of grace on human “being”, we remain as reactive creatures living with hypocrisy ready to kill on one day and heal on the next..

Yah…I think we’re back to requiring your definitions, including your vision or description of the cave as it applies to your concepts.

The above looks a lot like a no-true-scottsman argument.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
Total Posts:  15809
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:49
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:40 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:33 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

But history demonstrates that even if the majority of folks are christian in a given geopolitical region there are still wars.  Further, can you explain the necessity for objective morality to avoid warfare?

You are referring to the Christendom of Plato’s Cave that manifests in many forms and sects. Christianity is something else. I am referring to “grace.” Without the help of grace on human “being”, we remain as reactive creatures living with hypocrisy ready to kill on one day and heal on the next..

Down with the rule of Christendom in all its manifestations, Let’s push for the new Caliphate, that, at least will be built on an immediate recognition of the absolute unity of Allah.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
Total Posts:  6373
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
05 April 2012 18:58
 
burt - 05 April 2012 04:49 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:40 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:33 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
  and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
  a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
  a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
  a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
  a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
  a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
  a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
  a time for war and a time for peace.

The inbalance between technology and objective morality assures future wars.  With our improved methods of self destruction it means there will be wars leading to unimaginable consequences thanks to these modern advances.  Lacking a quality of consciousness leading to objective morality the cycle of war and peace is a lawful necessity. Not a pretty picture.

But history demonstrates that even if the majority of folks are christian in a given geopolitical region there are still wars.  Further, can you explain the necessity for objective morality to avoid warfare?

You are referring to the Christendom of Plato’s Cave that manifests in many forms and sects. Christianity is something else. I am referring to “grace.” Without the help of grace on human “being”, we remain as reactive creatures living with hypocrisy ready to kill on one day and heal on the next..

Down with the rule of Christendom in all its manifestations, Let’s push for the new Caliphate, that, at least will be built on an immediate recognition of the absolute unity of Allah.

It’s Allah! Not Allah.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
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Traces Elk
Total Posts:  5591
Joined  27-09-2006
 
 
 
05 April 2012 19:27
 
burt - 05 April 2012 04:43 PM

Correction, that constitutes the triume way of conceptualizing the universe.  Don’t go confusing the map with the territory.

Metaphysics is so 19th Century. Or is it 18th Century? Only wibblers think they have to conceptualise the universe, or that conceptualising the universe bends any spoons. The kind of conceptualising that cosmologists do is all math, and you can wibble to your heart’s content about whether or not mathematical objects are real. That’s still metaphysics. If you could still do math with the cosmologists, that’s what you’d be doing, instead of trying to impress wibblers like Nick with the old saws about the map and the territory. Anyone who’s ever pulled a map out of a glove box with a length scale less that that of the Trans-Canada Highway understands that one.

[ Edited: 05 April 2012 19:39 by Traces Elk]
 
 
Jeff M
 
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Jeff M
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Joined  08-10-2010
 
 
 
05 April 2012 21:31
 
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 04:23 PM
Jefe - 05 April 2012 04:12 PM
Nick_A - 05 April 2012 03:24 PM

My concern now is for the minority who are willing to intelletually doubt free of emotional denial. The future depends on there being enough of them.

Sounds pretty drastic.  What are your predictions if there are not ‘enough of them’?

As creatures of reaction, we respond to laws tht assure everything turns in cycles as described in Ecclesiastes 3:

 

Oh wow, you mean be bible actually predicted seasons and cycles? In Ecclesiastes 3 none the less? Amazing.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5100
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
05 April 2012 22:20
 

Ok, this is officially boring. Next please.

 
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