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Spirit, Mind and Body distinction

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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16 April 2012 05:19
 

I think the hypothesis of consciousness being a separate entity from the brain deserves a whole effort of scientific research.  When one consider many reliably official reports of out-of-the-body manifestation of consciousness, I consider there is more than enough evidence, real facts to constitute an excellent ground for scientific research on this consciousness/body separateness hypothesis. For this reason, I think neuroscience would not necessarily be enough to allow investigation in this direction.  First reason to this being it limits itself to brain study as far as I know.  Second reason would be that neuroscience seems to consider too often (a priori) consciousness to be in the brain by the simple logic that when you kill the brain, consciousness seems to have disappeared.  But what if the brain was just a complex interface between consciousness unit and the body ?  The same symptoms would be true, killing the brain would apparently stop any consciousness bodily manifestation.  Now as I said earlier, there are a lot of real facts (not faith-based at all) evidence of enough phenomenon to seriously give ground to the hypothesis of spirit or consciousness being possibly distinct from brain/body.  I would like to know if more people are interested about this research on scientific and philosophical basis, i.e. reason ground.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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16 April 2012 06:03
 
Agua - 16 April 2012 03:19 AM

I think the hypothesis of consciousness being a separate entity from the brain deserves a whole effort of scientific research.  When one consider many reliably official reports of out-of-the-body manifestation of consciousness, I consider there is more than enough evidence, real facts to constitute an excellent ground for scientific research on this consciousness/body separateness hypothesis. For this reason, I think neuroscience would not necessarily be enough to allow investigation in this direction.  First reason to this being it limits itself to brain study as far as I know.  Second reason would be that neuroscience seems to consider too often (a priori) consciousness to be in the brain by the simple logic that when you kill the brain, consciousness seems to have disappeared.  But what if the brain was just a complex interface between consciousness unit and the body ?  The same symptoms would be true, killing the brain would apparently stop any consciousness bodily manifestation.  Now as I said earlier, there are a lot of real facts (not faith-based at all) evidence of enough phenomenon to seriously give ground to the hypothesis of spirit or consciousness being possibly distinct from brain/body.  I would like to know if more people are interested about this research on scientific and philosophical basis, i.e. reason ground.

Have you read any of the scientific research into the existence of ‘spirit, soul, out-of-body-experiences…? I’ll dig some out for you. How’s that? What you will find is that every time it is investigated scientifically the researchers come up with exactly ZERO. There’s nothing there. So what are these ‘real facts’ you are talking about. Could you point me to the research you have looked at to save me some time?

Cheers

Rob

 
Galactic Beach
 
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Galactic Beach
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16 April 2012 10:56
 

Sam Harris was once talking about how if you damage the brain we can see this in the decline in an individuals ability to think relative to the part of the brain that was injured ... so to think that consciousness just lifts off the brain after the brain is dead is not following the pattern of observation .. if the case was that consciousness did lift off the brain after death then most likely if brain was damaged there would be no negative effect.

- Even still though people are going to remain scientifically looking for the spirit and soul and I encourage them too if they want.

Who knows.

People are free to experiment as they wish.

 
saralynn
 
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saralynn
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16 April 2012 11:22
 

AGUA:  I would like to know if more people are interested about this research on scientific and philosophical basis, i.e. reason ground.

I’m interested and I think there have been and are studies being done.  From all that I’ve read, brain function is responsible for all forms of cognition.  BUt, it’s all very mysterious because no one really understands how consciousness is created….how “meat becomes mind”.

I had a very close friend who “popped” out of her body every now and then.  She’d be sitting on the couch, then she’d be zapped out of her body and float up to the ceiling.  She mentioned the silver cord and everything.  She’s was also a farmer-type, rather than an New-Agey type.  She talked to her pastor about it.  He said it was satanic, so she got scared and immediately returned to her body whenever it happened.  It eventually ceased to occur.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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16 April 2012 11:43
 
DanielMoore1991 - 16 April 2012 08:56 AM

Sam Harris was once talking about how if you damage the brain we can see this in the decline in an individuals ability to think relative to the part of the brain that was injured ... so to think that consciousness just lifts off the brain after the brain is dead is not following the pattern of observation .. if the case was that consciousness did lift off the brain after death then most likely if brain was damaged there would be no negative effect.

- Even still though people are going to remain scientifically looking for the spirit and soul and I encourage them too if they want.

Who knows.

People are free to experiment as they wish.

Consciousness does not “just lift off the brain after the brain is dead”. When the brain dies consciousness is no more. It ceases. Finished. After death there is ziltch. That is what all the available evidence tells uis. Until you can come up with evidence to the contrary I don’t see why we should give such ideas any credence whatsoever.

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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16 April 2012 11:54
 

I’m suspect as to how much of a proactive imagination might be involved in these kinds of things. I know I’ve sometimes had a sense of starting to float outside of my own body (feels like whatever surface I’m on is moving off balance and away from me, and I’m kind of pressed up in the corner above myself), but I’ve never seen a silver cord, and I’ve never presumed it was anything other than something going on in my own brain. Depending upon the situational context I either just enjoy the sensation (it’s strange and kind of pleasant to me), or I just try to ignore it and make sure I’m not acting strangely (it happened to me at a job interview once when I was a teenager—it was a bit distracting, to put it mildly).

I suspect a lot of “supernatural” phenomena are just case of simple misfires that many people, with our craving for significance, spin in their own minds into something far more than it really is. But while that’s a pretty simple explanation, and it seems rather likely, it’s not proven to a degree that satisfies strict standards ... and certainly not most peoples’ rather selectively applied skepticism.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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16 April 2012 14:42
 

‘I think the hypothesis of consciousness being a separate entity from the brain deserves a whole effort of scientific research.’

And why do you think it hasn’t? Do you think this is a new idea?

 
 
can zen
 
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can zen
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16 April 2012 14:55
 
saralynn - 16 April 2012 09:22 AM

. . . no one really understands how consciousness is created….how “meat becomes mind”.

How does meat become breath?  How does meat become digestion? How does meat become consciousness?  All these terms, ‘mind’ included, are the actions of living meat. They actually manifest in the verb form as processes: breathing, digesting, minding.

Now we wait for someone really smart to come along and explain how conscious activity is created.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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16 April 2012 14:57
 
saralynn - 16 April 2012 09:22 AM

AGUA:  I would like to know if more people are interested about this research on scientific and philosophical basis, i.e. reason ground.

I’m interested and I think there have been and are studies being done.  From all that I’ve read, brain function is responsible for all forms of cognition.  BUt, it’s all very mysterious because no one really understands how consciousness is created….how “meat becomes mind”.

I had a very close friend who “popped” out of her body every now and then.  She’d be sitting on the couch, then she’d be zapped out of her body and float up to the ceiling.  She mentioned the silver cord and everything.  She’s was also a farmer-type, rather than an New-Agey type.  She talked to her pastor about it.  He said it was satanic, so she got scared and immediately returned to her body whenever it happened.  It eventually ceased to occur.

She was a hippie chick having acid flashbacks. But really why pander to such nonsense?

 
 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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16 April 2012 21:08
 

The sharing of God’s omnipresence is our existence.

Our body is, therefore, only a temporary “seat” for our existence in the physical universe.

The sharing of God’s omnipotence is our free will.

Our humanity is, therefore, only a temporary “seat” for our free will in space and time.

The sharing of God’s omniscience is our thoughts.

Our brain is, therefore, only a temporary “seat” for our thoughts in the biosphere.

We will not find “proof” that our body is only a temporal seat by doing scientific research into the physical universe.

We will not find “proof” that our humanity is only a temporal seat by doing philosophical research into time and space.

We will not find “proof” that our brain is only a temporal seat by doing biological research into the biosphere.

Proof is found for such truths in the only place it can be found—i.e., where knowledge of God, the power behind our powers, is found.

Therefore, since knowledge of God is stereotyped as “woo” by the posters above, who are framing the questions and qualifying the answers, no proof will ever be found by them, only ridiculous statements, such as, “minding” is equal to “digesting” because they are both “the actions of living meat”.

And, that makes this thread mostly “doo-doo”.

 
 
Galactic Beach
 
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Galactic Beach
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16 April 2012 22:27
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 16 April 2012 09:43 AM
DanielMoore1991 - 16 April 2012 08:56 AM

Sam Harris was once talking about how if you damage the brain we can see this in the decline in an individuals ability to think relative to the part of the brain that was injured ... so to think that consciousness just lifts off the brain after the brain is dead is not following the pattern of observation .. if the case was that consciousness did lift off the brain after death then most likely if brain was damaged there would be no negative effect.

- Even still though people are going to remain scientifically looking for the spirit and soul and I encourage them too if they want.

Who knows.

People are free to experiment as they wish.

Consciousness does not “just lift off the brain after the brain is dead”. When the brain dies consciousness is no more. It ceases. Finished. After death there is ziltch. That is what all the available evidence tells uis. Until you can come up with evidence to the contrary I don’t see why we should give such ideas any credence whatsoever.

I agree.

 
can zen
 
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can zen
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17 April 2012 02:24
 

Brother Mario claims that each of us is just a “temporal seat” for god, isn’t that sweet! I will likewise claim that Brother Mario is just a “momentary ass” for god, not so sweet!

 
 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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17 April 2012 02:55
 

Wouldn’t argue with you there, Canzen. He is indeed an ass and not even a pretty one.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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17 April 2012 03:05
 

One interesting case I is the one of Jean Morzelle.  I don’t know if there is any English version of his story on the web, but here is a link :
http://atheismeetnde.bloguez.com/atheismeetnde/573026/LA-FORMIDABLE-NDE-DE-JEAN-MORZELLE-EMI-SCIENCE-MORT-SANTE-

This case it quite remarkable as this person did see the serial number of the operation table while he was going through heart surgery and being out of his body.  The surgeon could not believe him and told him he had hallucination or something.  The surgeon did not even know there was anything written below the surgery table.  But he had to admit it afterwards when he checked.

I am not interested in Jean Morzelle’s beliefs and religion, even if he thought afterwards in terms of religious belief.  But the factual aspect of this NDE would really deserve scientists interest in my opinion.

 
can zen
 
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can zen
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17 April 2012 03:05
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 17 April 2012 12:55 AM

Wouldn’t argue with you there, Canzen. He is indeed an ass and not even a pretty one.

Yes indeed.  And he and that dog are just way to close in that avatar, poor mutt!

 
 
Agua
 
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Agua
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17 April 2012 03:10
 
DanielMoore1991 - 16 April 2012 08:56 AM

Sam Harris was once talking about how if you damage the brain we can see this in the decline in an individuals ability to think relative to the part of the brain that was injured ... so to think that consciousness just lifts off the brain after the brain is dead is not following the pattern of observation .. if the case was that consciousness did lift off the brain after death then most likely if brain was damaged there would be no negative effect.

- Even still though people are going to remain scientifically looking for the spirit and soul and I encourage them too if they want.

Who knows.

People are free to experiment as they wish.

—-

I think I understand your point.  However, I would be quite interested in knowing what scientific progress has been made on the spirit / brain-body separateness hypothesis.  In this hypothesis, the brain could be considered a complex interface for the spirit or consciousness unit to use the body.  Such an interface could be sophisticated enough to have automatisms as well.  But if this hypothesis contained any truth, the damage of a brain region would effectively damage the consciousness use of the body or of the brain automatisms for that region of the interface, but that would not necessarily damage the consciousness itself.  That’s an interesting track to research.

[ Edited: 17 April 2012 03:22 by Agua]
 
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