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Spirit, Mind and Body distinction

 
Galactic Beach
 
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Galactic Beach
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26 April 2012 17:53
 

Great contribution Martin.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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26 April 2012 19:31
 

Oh, fuck! Another TwistedSister. Hope they go off and have quality wank time together with the Bable in their laps. But knowing their type, they tend to compete and end up hating each other. It’s like:

“I KNOW god and what he wants. He told me so personally! He talks to me specially. I got first hand experience.”

“No. That’s crap!. Only I KNOW the TRUE god and how to contact him. I got it first hand through personal REVELATION! Now that’s KNOWLEDGE, boy! Oh, yeah, I know god and what he wants. You can’t possibly know the true god. I done the work and the true God told me you are a fraud. Now, shut up, follow me, be my acolyte and everything will be just dandy ‘tween you and god. Otherwise, you going to hell. I know God personally. That’s what you gotta raalise, boy. God hates fags, god hates Sweden, god hates America and god hates you!”.

Noooo! No, no no! I got a 35 bedroom house with a gran piana and a pool table in every room. God done that. Why, jus this afternoon I was up on the roof fixing tiles and the Lord, the LORD mind you, gave me another RELAVATION. That’s how I know you don’t know nothin bout the TRUE GOD.

That’s nothin boy. I read the baaable 100 times and spent seven years in a monastery and blah, blah , blah…

And that’s how it would probably fo with these loonies. As if any of it had the slightest connection with reality.

[ Edited: 26 April 2012 20:30 by robbrownsyd]
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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26 April 2012 23:29
 
Agua - 26 April 2012 03:53 AM
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 25 April 2012 11:28 PM

Oh, yes. I could see my bed down below and my brother in the other bed asleep. I imagine if someone had walked into the room right then I would have felt that I was seeing them from my vantage point above. They, however, would have seen young Rob in the usual position in his bed where he indeed actually was. His perception of being up near the ceiling being the result of some temporary circuitry problem going on in his brain between wakefulness and sleep. Nothing spooky or supertnatural happening. Sorry guys.

I find this perception quite interesting however, because I wonder what was the perceptic body-organ or body-system able to relay to the brain the view from that point near the ceiling.  It could not be the eyeballs system, as far as I know.  But you say there was sight caught from the ceiling viewpoint.  Any idea or cue about the temporary circuitry problem going on in the brain then ?

Can you imagine what you would look like lying on an operating table?  Sure.  Could you imagine what that scene looked like from different perspectives?  Sure.  Could you imagine what was going on out in the hall you’d just passed through on the way into the operating room?  Sure.  If you can imagine it, you can dream about it.  No magic or free floating required.

As for the French article cited, I can’t judge.  But if I noticed a serial number underneath a table, I don’t think I’d remember it, unless I made a point to do so.  I’m wondering if it is realistic to think a disembodied spirit would do this.  Anyway, we can’t know the details unless we read French in this case.

I have a friend who is a surgeon.  He has lots of funny stories about the effects of anesthesia on patients.  Often they are very aware and conversational during surgery, but have absolutely no memory of what happened.  So their consciousness was functioning, but their memory was not engaged.  And there are other stories of people whom doctors thought were completely unconscious and oblivious, but they heard and remembered what was going on around them, including the funky music selected by the operating room staff.  Some people have wild dreams.  I remember waking up freezing cold.  Those drugs really do a number on your brain and body.

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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27 April 2012 10:17
 
Professor Farnsworth - 26 April 2012 02:49 PM
Mike78 - 26 April 2012 02:43 PM
Professor Farnsworth - 26 April 2012 01:19 PM

No one. But yea a general misunderstanding I find is the misrepresentation of the categorization of the extremities or spookiness of nature into the Godlee category. Though the supernatural does exist. It is the extremities of nature. 

Agua did ask a great question though.

I am not on either side of the fence either.

You’ve defined supernatural as extreme-natural.  That’s non-sense.

No, no by my logical deduction you’ve defined supernatural as something to do with God-like powers.  That is non-sense.

By my logical deduction, you’ve just disqualified your logic.  BTW, everybody cites Corbin.

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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27 April 2012 10:59
 

The world of atoms is non-sense.

Seeing the cosmos, or any object at a distance, at the moment it is there is non-sense.

And, many other things are non-sense.

Any person who holds up our 5 senses as the measure of truth and reality is guilty of “illogical deduction”.

And, when that person does so with an atheist or materialist agenda, and without the least credentials or education, that person is nothing but a fool who should be ignored or laughed at.

Project Reason has diminished to hosting such persons, and other fools besides—like ex-addicts who are courageously and rationallly engulfed in reality, unlike their good religious neighbors…ugh.

Project Reason has fallen far short of its mission statement.

Project Reason has become a den of opinionated conversations with nothing important to say.

Project Reason is almost over.

Mark these words.

And, speaking of being over and the marking of words…where is jobryne8989?

 
 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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27 April 2012 11:45
 
TheBrotherMario - 27 April 2012 08:59 AM

The world of atoms is non-sense.

Seeing the cosmos, or any object at a distance, at the moment it is there is non-sense.

And, many other things are non-sense.

Any person who holds up our 5 senses as the measure of truth and reality is guilty of “illogical deduction”.

And, when that person does so with an atheist or materialist agenda, and without the least credentials or education, that person is nothing but a fool who should be ignored or laughed at.

Project Reason has diminished to hosting such persons, and other fools besides—like ex-addicts who are courageously and rationallly engulfed in reality, unlike their good religious neighbors…ugh.

Project Reason has fallen far short of its mission statement.

Project Reason has become a den of opinionated conversations with nothing important to say.

Project Reason is almost over.

Mark these words.

And, speaking of being over and the marking of words…where is jobryne8989?

Yawn.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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28 April 2012 04:41
 
hannahfriend - 26 April 2012 09:29 PM

Can you imagine what you would look like lying on an operating table?  Sure.  Could you imagine what that scene looked like from different perspectives?  Sure.  Could you imagine what was going on out in the hall you’d just passed through on the way into the operating room?  Sure.  If you can imagine it, you can dream about it.  No magic or free floating required.

Yes, I understand your point.  It’s a good point, which was proposed by Rob, too, as a possible explanation for the ceiling viewpoint.  It’s quite plausible that, like in dreams, some brain mechanism would create the temporary unusual perception of a remote viewpoint built from things already perceived before in normal perception situations.  Like rebuilding some perception of a corridor or a room seen some time before, and reproducing it during an OBE with such a strength that it would be difficult for consciousness to distinguish this rebuilt perception quality from usual quality of things normally perceived.  I guess that is what Rob and you were proposing.  It makes a lot of sense to me too.
On the other hand, I would not necessarily discredit OBE testimonies telling about things newly perceived which were not perceived before if the witnesses are reliable a priori.
The consciousness is still something so little understood that investigation should not jump too fast to the conclusion of the brain hypothesis.  Doing so would be setting belief instead of continued observation and application of reason on the subject.  But Rob and Hannah’s explanation certainly pushes the proof requirement a bit further.
Also, the implications if consciousness were distinct from brain production, if the mind or spirit were something distinct, are quite valuable, since life dimension would be more than body/brain one.  After all, the existence of no-mass particles is a serious scientific theory and discovery.  So an apparently immaterial entity is not something so unimaginable one could think

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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28 April 2012 04:46
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 26 April 2012 08:35 AM
Professor Farnsworth - 26 April 2012 08:30 AM
Agua - 26 April 2012 03:53 AM

good point Aqua. i agree with this criticism

PF, it was not a criticism. Agua asked for a possible explanation for the phenomenon I experienced and I gave him one. So far he has asked for no more. Perhaps you didn’t like the explanation. Not spooky enough?

Absolutely, it was certainly not criticism.  I appreciate very much your contribution to this thread as it is not everyone who has had such OBE experience and all your first hand input on this (and other input of course) is very valuable to me.  Your explanation is quite plausible.  I answered Hannah too on this point.  As I said, this explanation does push proof requirement further on the hypothesis of mind/spirit and body distinction.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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28 April 2012 04:55
 
Professor Farnsworth - 26 April 2012 08:30 AM

good point Aqua. i agree with this criticism

Thanks.  Actually, Rob’s answer to my question is interesting too.  Because, the hypothesis of the brain being able to generate rebuilt perceptions from past real perceptions is very plausible.  It puts this kind of perceptions in the same category as hallucinations then.  An example of OBE involving perceiving something the person had never perceived before and which would be confirmed as having really occurred would be a better material to the spirit/body distinction hypothesis.

[ Edited: 28 April 2012 15:36 by Agua]
 
Agua
 
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Agua
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28 April 2012 05:11
 
hannahfriend - 25 April 2012 11:58 PM

I learned about this in the book “The Ego Tunnel” by neurologist T Metzinger.

First, let me correct a misstatement.  Metzinger is actually a prof of philosophy in Germany, specializing in consciousness studies.  But his book is based on neurological science, and he describes much research in the field.  His approach is to understand consciousness from the point of view of evolutionary biology.

According to his survey of OBE, there is no solid, documented evidence of a person doing anything like what you suggest above, just anecdotal claims.  As a matter of fact, some researchers have placed certain obvious markers in hospital rooms just to see if people having an OBE could see them (placed so they can only be seen from a ceiling perspective), but thus far, this type of experiment has not been successful, mainly because it is impossible to predict beforehand if someone is going to have an OBE.

You could say that perhaps Metzinger is unaware of all the evidence available, but he seems pretty knowledgeable and credible.  Read his book (or that part), and judge for yourself.

Of course, scientific research in the field is limited.  So one might choose not to dismiss the weight of the anecdotes.

Hannah, I had a chance to read parts of “The Ego Tunnel” on the web.  Quite interesting.  Now, as far as I understood the experiments he commented, they are mostly exposing the correlation between brain regions activity and the feelings of the person under test.  And I would tend to agree on the capability of the brain to produce feelings from stimuli to these regions which can look very much like OBE perceptions.  But when the brain activity under an surgery operation is recorded to zero activity, which is death official symptom, for a good while and the person comes back to life able to tell what was going on exactly during this null-activity period, it does not follow the same conditions Metzinger was witness of.  And these events have been reported many times in many places, sometimes without enough proof to be reliable, sometimes with reliable witnesses like emergency medical personnel or surgeons.

There is another book, from Alva Noë (“Out of our heads : Why we are not our brains…”), which takes the opposite approach while relying also on neuroscience.  I have not been able to read it all, only excerpts on the web.  My main agreement with it is that we do not know enough about the brain or consciousness to assert with Metzinger that consciousness would be only a phenomenal consciousness.  It may be its obvious aspect, but not its proven nature, at least not yet.

[ Edited: 28 April 2012 05:15 by Agua]
 
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