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Spirit, Mind and Body distinction

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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20 April 2012 18:36
 
GAD - 20 April 2012 02:14 PM

There are no “real verified testimonies”, period.

How did you verify that ?

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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20 April 2012 18:47
 
Mike78 - 20 April 2012 02:51 PM

I suppose you could have testimonies corroborated by other testimonies, but that’s not much.  If one nutter backs up another claiming to have seen Elvis, would you launch an investigation in to whether Elvis lives?  I think you’ll find that kind of verification is “easy come, easy go,” so don’t get “all shook up” over it.

The kind of real verified testimony I am talking about is when someone has a NDE and perceive a serial number below the surgery flat table and tells about it to the sirgeon after his heart operation (that’s the testimony); then the surgeon does not believe this testimony and tells the guy he was having a confused halluciation; then the surgeon, by mere scientific curiosity, checks later under the operation table and finds out there is suc a serial number that the guy told him and could not have known about before the surgery (that’s the verification of the testimony).  And the surgeon did not even know there was this number on the back of the table.  Now, when this kind of fact happens, I don’t see why one could say “There are no «verified real testimonies»”.  I think it’s a valuable fact and its mystery and potential discovery importance deserves scientific investigation.  Of course the kind of non-reliable “verified testimony” you mention has nothing to do with mystery fact valuableness for science.

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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20 April 2012 20:21
 
Agua - 20 April 2012 04:47 PM
Mike78 - 20 April 2012 02:51 PM

I suppose you could have testimonies corroborated by other testimonies, but that’s not much.  If one nutter backs up another claiming to have seen Elvis, would you launch an investigation in to whether Elvis lives?  I think you’ll find that kind of verification is “easy come, easy go,” so don’t get “all shook up” over it.

The kind of real verified testimony I am talking about is when someone has a NDE and perceive a serial number below the surgery flat table and tells about it to the sirgeon after his heart operation (that’s the testimony); then the surgeon does not believe this testimony and tells the guy he was having a confused halluciation; then the surgeon, by mere scientific curiosity, checks later under the operation table and finds out there is suc a serial number that the guy told him and could not have known about before the surgery (that’s the verification of the testimony).  And the surgeon did not even know there was this number on the back of the table.  Now, when this kind of fact happens, I don’t see why one could say “There are no «verified real testimonies»”.  I think it’s a valuable fact and its mystery and potential discovery importance deserves scientific investigation.  Of course the kind of non-reliable “verified testimony” you mention has nothing to do with mystery fact valuableness for science.

Somebody’s lying.  Mystery solved.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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20 April 2012 23:56
 
Agua - 20 April 2012 04:36 PM
GAD - 20 April 2012 02:14 PM

There are no “real verified testimonies”, period.

How did you verify that ?

With charm, wit and good looks. Which is far more then any “real verified testimonies” have to show.

 
 
Agua
 
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Agua
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21 April 2012 04:31
 
Mike78 - 20 April 2012 06:21 PM

Somebody’s lying.  Mystery solved.

Well, this is belief, not scientific observation of the related fact, isn’t it ?  One can always assert by belief that the other one is lying in his discourse.  But still, a scientific approach would be in favour of observation rather than fast conclusion sticking to a belief, any belief, be it religious or materialistic, since it is a prejudice.  Now I understand this kind of fact is incredible.  But it is not necessarily a lie.  You must recognize many scientific discoveries in the past were first and long treated as lies and that left the burden of investigation, real observation, experiencing and discovery to very few people.  That has been the pattern for so long.

[ Edited: 21 April 2012 04:37 by Agua]
 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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21 April 2012 06:36
 
saralynn - 20 April 2012 10:35 AM

Rob: I’ve mentioned before in this place that when I was younger I had ‘out of body experiences’. I found them quite enjoyable but I have absolutely no doubt that they resulted from something chemical/neurological.  What was happening was happening in my brain and nowere else. There was nothing spooky or supernatural about those experiences. They are not evidence of anything beyond us. You can do the same trick with LSD or even good dope. So for all those who are hoping for some connection to ‘the other side’ all I can say is get over it. There’s fucking nothing there.

Really?  I don’t recall reading about this. How young were you?  If you were a child, why weren’t you frightened?  Had you heard about OBE’s before?  Did you see the silver cord?  Were you into “spirituality”?  Did you try to leave your body or just pop out

What’s interesting about the woman I knew was that her experiences happened in the 1950s before this stuff became common knowledge.  She also described the silver cord in detail, which added a touch of veracity to the story. She was a dear friend of mine and not prone to an excess of imagination, although she was a devout Christian.

About was 8 or 9 years old, Sarlynn. I wasn’t frightened, just surprised. This was in the early sixties in a small country town and I had never heard of OBE’s at that stage. There was no ‘silver chord’ and I wouldn’t have known what spirituality was in those days. I just found myself hovering up near the ceiling whilst lying in bed before sleep. It happened twice. I didn’t tell anyone because even then I suspected it might sound slightly weird. I suspect it was something happening in my brain as it was shutting down ready for sleep - nothing spooky. I find it amusing how those who want ‘more’ clutch at straws like this.

There have been studies done on NDE’s and OBE’s and as far as I know they have all come up empty handed. I will look up the studies and post the links.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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21 April 2012 06:57
 

Wiki gives an outline of the studies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience  I’m not going to read them all.

For those interested there is a good atrticle here with links to studies: http://skepdic.com/obe.html

The bottom line is that there is nothing ‘paranormal’ about the experiences - they can be explained with reference to brain activity.

[ Edited: 21 April 2012 07:58 by robbrownsyd]
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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21 April 2012 10:56
 

Upon awakening, we rush to the bathroom mirror and glare into our EYEBALLS and ask, “Where the hell have you been?”

The real question is, can you see without your EYEBALLS? As if they were flying around outside of your head? Dreaming is like that. Dreams are recalled as visual and auditory experiences unanchored by the actual location of the body. In order to dream, one must be unconscious and or asleep. Only one of our three perceptual platforms is unanchored to the physical self and that’s Mr. Flashlight. To have a totally third floor experience entirely from the Bridge perspective, one must be fully conscious and awake. So an OBE can’t be a dream, right?

Mr Now sleeps and has dreams, which we experience from his perspective while floating at the surface of the nyeep pool. Dreams flow by and we try to re-narrate them when we wake if we remember them at all. Now that we are awake, we want to know what order or sequence our dream was in. The imagery may be vivid and bits of movement are recalled in detail so why isn’t the whole sequence as easy to recall?

We would swear we were asleep and unconscious. All the mechanisms of consciousness (third floor, Libet Bridge, Mr. Flashlight) were switched off, right? How could you have a conscious mind and not be conscious of it?

The answer is, Mr. Now is pregnant. A vast gas deposit of emergent knowledge from deep in the nyeep pool is ready to burst out. It isn’t spiritual information, it’s stuff your brain has worked out, processed and learned in parts of the nyeep pool that we are never conscious of and now it has built up into a Stored Narrative Charge. Mr. Flashlight will help deliver the baby in a procedure that is the standard model of human thought- the third floor narrates the flow of the second floor.

Dreams and OBE’s are the same brain procedure seen from different internal perspectives or floors. Both have the trademark of post-cinema visuals- no vanishing points. Trying going cross-eyed. There’s no stereoscopic depth: just hyper-realized depth. Just LOOK.

In a Conan-Doyle story, the operating table serial number would just the sort of obscure detail that some happenstance or coincidence was revealed to the patient. Maybe he reached under and felt the deep engraving in the plate. Maybe he once worked for the table company. Holmes would check for prints. Or maybe, that’s how his drugged brain learned the knowledge from his fingertips while he was unconscious.


EYEBALLS floating in mid-air? Somebody would notice.

 
 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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21 April 2012 12:25
 

Nice way of looking at it, Nhoj. And it makes a whole lot more sense than imagining disembodied ‘souls’ floating around in some imaginary paranormal space where the laws of nature do not hold. I have no doubt that science has or will have answers to this sort of stuff.

But this paranormal crap will be with us for as long as there are claims and phenomenna that certain folks think science cannot explain. Indeed, such people hope science will not be able to explain them. They hate those gaps being filled with knowledge. But bit by bit, year by year, as science progresses the gaps that can be used to hide woo get smaller and smaller.

As always with claims of the extraordinary it is better to begin from a position of absolute scepticism (not necessarily about their reality but about their provenance and meaning) Then, when the claims or phenomena turn one to be explicable by science or just plain nonsense (and they invariably turn out to be one or the other) one is not dissappointed.

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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21 April 2012 19:10
 

Let’s see:

Millions of people claim that their spirituality is real, but this must be met with “absolute skepticism”, says the nonspiritual Australian, who further claims with certitude—“There’s nothing there.”

Okay, my turn:

Millions of people claim that their being gay is real, but this must be met with “absolute skepticism”, says the heterosexual American, who further claims with certitude—“There’s nothing there.”

Fair enough?

Or are our sexual lives more deserving of political correctness than our spiritual lives?

Cast your vote.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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23 April 2012 13:38
 

A testimonial is subjective bias. Millions of people claim to have seen UFO’s and been abducted by them. Others say they can and have verified this. So, is it true?

One persons testimonial is another persons opinion, and opinions are not all valid nor equal.

 
 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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23 April 2012 15:43
 
TheBrotherMario - 21 April 2012 05:10 PM

Let’s see:

Millions of people claim that their spirituality is real, but this must be met with “absolute skepticism”, says the nonspiritual Australian, who further claims with certitude—“There’s nothing there.”

Okay, my turn:

Millions of people claim that their being gay is real, but this must be met with “absolute skepticism”, says the heterosexual American, who further claims with certitude—“There’s nothing there.”

Fair enough?

Or are our sexual lives more deserving of political correctness than our spiritual lives?

Cast your vote.

Greater numbers claim their being heterosexual is real, with the most voiciferous proponents (usually religious and republican) frequently caught with their pants down and foot shuffling under the men’s room stall.  Conflict between pleasing their sky daddy in public and pretend pony/boyfriend in private?

Cast your vote….

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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23 April 2012 15:54
 

Exactly, but the dumbo BM won’t get it. Doesn’t want to. That’s religious nuttery for you.

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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23 April 2012 16:05
 
Agua - 21 April 2012 02:31 AM
Mike78 - 20 April 2012 06:21 PM

Somebody’s lying.  Mystery solved.

Well, this is belief, not scientific observation of the related fact, isn’t it ?  One can always assert by belief that the other one is lying in his discourse.  But still, a scientific approach would be in favour of observation rather than fast conclusion sticking to a belief, any belief, be it religious or materialistic, since it is a prejudice.  Now I understand this kind of fact is incredible.  But it is not necessarily a lie.  You must recognize many scientific discoveries in the past were first and long treated as lies and that left the burden of investigation, real observation, experiencing and discovery to very few people.  That has been the pattern for so long.

No lunchbox, somebody’s lying about the “verification.”  Millions of children’s mothers’ lies about Santa Claus are “verfied” by their fathers’ lies, yet nobody is proposing a study to see if Santa Claus can really be detected entering a chimney. 

There are thousands of people making heaps of money investigating “paranormal” occurrences.  It’s been happening for hundreds of years.  The evidence is always the same—slamming doors, footsteps, cold feeling, scratches, green colored video of people saying “what was that?!,” bumps in the night if you will, and in the end, a bunch of credulous dupes all frighten one another.  If it doesn’t lead to huddling together and sex, you wonder why do it.  It’s enough to make your hair stand on end, and fund yet another industry based on superstitous nonsense, I suppose. PT Barnum would be proud.  That’s no excuse to throw money that could be used for real science into this phantasmagorical hole.

Besides, you still haven’t answered any of my more practical, sarcastic, challenges to this crap.  How do you propose to measure out-of-body experiences scientifically?  Where do you point your instruments?

What would be the point anyway?  Will NASA be able to use this research?  Has anybody ever reported being effectual while out of body, i.e., are they ever able to do anything anyone would ever care about?  Could we send out-of-body astronauts into space (no shuttle needed)?  If we’re resigned to floating above our own bodies like helium balloons, what exactly is the utility of that crap?  I want an un-manned, manned trip to Saturn.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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23 April 2012 16:08
 

LOL

Spot on, Mike. And hilarious!

(Rob waves rainbow flag)

[ Edited: 23 April 2012 16:14 by robbrownsyd]
 
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