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Spirit, Mind and Body distinction

 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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23 April 2012 20:00
 

Great post indeed Mike! You out did yourself with that one, and your stuff is always damned good!

cheese

 
 
EN
 
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23 April 2012 20:16
 

Question: Has there been any actual scientific effort spent specifically directed toward determining whether or not God exists, or more particularly, God as described in any religion?  Has there been any actual study? I’m not aware of any, but perhaps someone is.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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24 April 2012 03:47
 
Mike78 - 23 April 2012 02:05 PM

Besides, you still haven’t answered any of my more practical, sarcastic, challenges to this crap.  How do you propose to measure out-of-body experiences scientifically?  Where do you point your instruments?

I do not have an answer to your question as far as knowing how to do it, how to measure this outside of the body.  The stage I am at for the moment is to be interested in research scientifically done on this subject, knowing if serious research has been conducted up to now, not on the brain activity, as it might just be an interface, but on this possible out-of-the-body activity.
Now, your other question about the use of it : again it is much too soon to pretend knowing the use of it, the idea for the moment is discovering the truth about this, what is and what is not.  If the true proven situation were the distinct existence of the mind or spirit, not necessarily always related to the brain interface to the body, I am interested to know that’s the true situation.  If it’s not and can be scientifically proven so, I am also interested as it would be the true situation.  What to do with it is another point which should not, in my opinion, bear upon truth research willingness.

[ Edited: 24 April 2012 03:49 by Agua]
 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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24 April 2012 08:18
 

There have been a number of interesting studies done, Bruce. For example, a study was done of intercessory prayer. That is prayers for the recovery of sick people. Turned out it has no effect. And in fact, if folks know they are being prayed for they actually die quicker. I can’t remember all the studies I’ve read about. I’ll do a search and post the results later. I do remember however that the results gave no joy to believers. Their comeback is that because the scientists were ‘testing’ god the studies turned up nothing. Whatever.

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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24 April 2012 10:29
 

Whenever a person knows nothing about something, or has no personal experience of something, they turn to others for their information.

Thirty-five years ago, I PRAYED for my grandmother (who was a real bitter woman), my mother (who was living in an inner city 3rd floor apartment smoking cigarettes), and my sister (who was a professional woman that didn’t want children). My PRAYER was a daily month-long rosary (all 15 mysteries) that I PRAYED in front of a statue of MARY, the MOTHER OF GOD, while kneeling on a marble floor. During that month all three women took ill and ended up in the hospital. My grandmother had heart trouble, my mother has breathing trouble, and my sister has a mysterious eye illness that doctors never discovered what it was. The results of these illnesses were—my grandmother became a much better person, my mother quit smoking (she is still alive today at 87) was placed (doctor’s orders) to the front of a list of people waiting to get into a wonderful small house in a new development for the elderly (which she did the day she left the hospital), and my sister could not return to work for months, but regain sight in her eye after getting pregnant with my niece.

So pardon me for reading Rob’s post and wanting to shove it up his ass.

[ Edited: 24 April 2012 10:32 by TheBrotherMario]
 
 
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24 April 2012 12:19
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 24 April 2012 06:18 AM

There have been a number of interesting studies done, Bruce. For example, a study was done of intercessory prayer. That is prayers for the recovery of sick people. Turned out it has no effect. And in fact, if folks know they are being prayed for they actually die quicker. I can’t remember all the studies I’ve read about. I’ll do a search and post the results later. I do remember however that the results gave no joy to believers. Their comeback is that because the scientists were ‘testing’ god the studies turned up nothing. Whatever.

Yes, Rob, I’m familiar with those studies, but I’m talking about something specifically directed toward the existence of God. Prayer studies would be indirect, just as studies that I’ve seen that “church-going people live longer” or “believers are happier” are indirect.  If you find anything, please let me know.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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24 April 2012 12:49
 

Cheers, Bruce. But that’s the problem, isn’t it. How do you directly test for something that has no physical manifestation in the physical world in which we live, the physical world of which we are a part? It is logically impossible to get 2 by adding 1 + 0. People spout crap like ‘faith moves mountains’. But we ain’t ever gonna see mountains move because we have faith. Mountains move because of tectonic forces that can be explained in physical terms. Let’s say I believe in a pink teapot orbiting Mars. At least in theory that belief could be tested because the teapot, however small and far away, would have mass, occupy space, reflect light etc - it would have a physical presence and have an effect on the matter and space around it and would therefore be observable given enough effort. But how do we test for a being who is supposed to be everywhere, knows everything and has the power to control everything (including our testing) but for whom there is not the slightest physical evidence? It just doesn’t make sense.

Moreover, I don’t think it is up to science to prove that gods exist. Science is not about proving the unproveable, testing the untestable or demonstrating that the logically impossible is possible. That is a job for theists and one that they will never be able to do. If people want to believe in gods it is not because there is any evidence, direct or otherwise, for such purported beings. It is because such people want or need, for psychological reasons, to believe in gods. It’s because believing in gods makes them feel better. That’s all it is. And they’ll spout all sorts of mumbo jumbo to convince themselves that what they need/want is real. They are afraid of the dark. They have a fear of death, a fear of being alone, a fear of figuring out for themselves what is the right way to live… Handing it to fictional gods, however well imagined, may make life bearable for some. For educated people to delude themselves and hide behind such nonsense is abject solipsism and a cowardly cop out.

Look at BM. A more crazy, needy person one could not imagine. He obviously needs an imaginary god because without it he can’t cope. (Not that he copes very well even with his crazy idea of god) He is so needy and psychologically fragile that he could not abide mere reality. Because he is so inadequate, he needs a way to make himself feel special and, in order for him to believe he actually is special, he needs to convince others of his specialness by arguing that he has knowledge that can have no basis in reality and which it is logically impossible for him, or anyone else, to have. It is pure delusion and self-deception. I am not saying you are in the same dysfunctional league as the Twisted Sister. What you choose to believe works for you in your religious community and interferes with no one else. And that’s the best that can be hoped for with religion. But as Mario shows, belief in the unbelievable can become very problematic for those around such a person so out of contact with reality.

But I’m getting off point here, which is that we cannot test for the untestable. We can only test for what believers claim gods do in the physical world. So far, when science has tested such claims, the results have not been to the liking of theists. That is not science’s fault.

[ Edited: 24 April 2012 16:52 by robbrownsyd]
 
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24 April 2012 12:57
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 24 April 2012 10:49 AM

Cheers, Bruce. But that’s the problem, isn’t it. How do you directly test for something that has no physical manifestation in the physical world in which we live? People spout crap like ‘faith moves mountains’. We ain’t ever gonna see mountains move because we have faith. Mountains move because of tectonic forces that can be explained in physical terms. Let’s say I believe in a pink teapot orbiting Mars. At least in theory that belief could be tested because the teapot would have mass, occupy space, reflect light etc - it would have a physical presence and have an effect on the matter and space around it and would therefore be observable given enough effort. But how do we test for a being who is supposed to be everywhere, knows everything and has the power to control everything (including our testing) but for whom there is not the slightest physical evidence? It just doesn’t make sense.

I understand all the arguments.  I’m just wondering if any direct scientific experiments have ever been attempted. Again, I’m not aware of any, I’m just asking if anyone else is.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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24 April 2012 13:10
 

I am not aware of any, Bruce. And as I mentioned above,  I do not see how, given the attributes gods are supposed to have, any such direct testing would be possible. I will keep searching for any purported ‘direct’ tests of the existence of gods. If anyone else can find any I’d love to know about them. Oh, and please, personal revelation does not count as science so Mario ought to hold his tongues for once. (But that would be a miracle wouldn’t it? And we know they too are not possible)

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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24 April 2012 20:01
 
Agua - 24 April 2012 01:47 AM
Mike78 - 23 April 2012 02:05 PM

Besides, you still haven’t answered any of my more practical, sarcastic, challenges to this crap.  How do you propose to measure out-of-body experiences scientifically?  Where do you point your instruments?

I do not have an answer to your question as far as knowing how to do it, how to measure this outside of the body.  The stage I am at for the moment is to be interested in research scientifically done on this subject, knowing if serious research has been conducted up to now, not on the brain activity, as it might just be an interface, but on this possible out-of-the-body activity.
Now, your other question about the use of it : again it is much too soon to pretend knowing the use of it, the idea for the moment is discovering the truth about this, what is and what is not.  If the true proven situation were the distinct existence of the mind or spirit, not necessarily always related to the brain interface to the body, I am interested to know that’s the true situation.  If it’s not and can be scientifically proven so, I am also interested as it would be the true situation.  What to do with it is another point which should not, in my opinion, bear upon truth research willingness.

If my choices were to allocate research money to this silliness or burn it in a trash can, I would elect to burn it in a trash can, reason being that it seems less wasteful.

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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24 April 2012 20:02
 
Avogadro’s number - 23 April 2012 06:00 PM

Great post indeed Mike! You out did yourself with that one, and your stuff is always damned good!

cheese

Much love to all…

 
Mike78
 
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Mike78
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24 April 2012 20:09
 
TheBrotherMario - 24 April 2012 08:29 AM

Whenever a person knows nothing about something, or has no personal experience of something, they turn to others for their information.

Thirty-five years ago, I PRAYED for my grandmother (who was a real bitter woman), my mother (who was living in an inner city 3rd floor apartment smoking cigarettes), and my sister (who was a professional woman that didn’t want children). My PRAYER was a daily month-long rosary (all 15 mysteries) that I PRAYED in front of a statue of MARY, the MOTHER OF GOD, while kneeling on a marble floor. During that month all three women took ill and ended up in the hospital. My grandmother had heart trouble, my mother has breathing trouble, and my sister has a mysterious eye illness that doctors never discovered what it was. The results of these illnesses were—my grandmother became a much better person, my mother quit smoking (she is still alive today at 87) was placed (doctor’s orders) to the front of a list of people waiting to get into a wonderful small house in a new development for the elderly (which she did the day she left the hospital), and my sister could not return to work for months, but regain sight in her eye after getting pregnant with my niece.

So pardon me for reading Rob’s post and wanting to shove it up his ass.

This is beautiful.  I mean you prayed for these women for a month, and they all got sick.  Apparently, you have the midas touch of crap when it comes to prayer.  If it were not for the intervention of medical science, who knows, you might have prayed them all to death.  Thank goodness for doctors.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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25 April 2012 01:59
 

One theory about OBE is that it is a temporary malfunction of our sense of connection with our body.  We don’t often think about having this sense, but it is what enables us to know that it is our hands typing on the computer and our feet touching the ground as we walk.  When this sense is thrown off, by anesthesia or illness or other factors, a person can feel outside his own body.

I learned about this in the book “The Ego Tunnel” by neurologist T Metzinger.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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25 April 2012 02:39
 
hannahfriend - 24 April 2012 11:59 PM

One theory about OBE is that it is a temporary malfunction of our sense of connection with our body.  We don’t often think about having this sense, but it is what enables us to know that it is our hands typing on the computer and our feet touching the ground as we walk.  When this sense is thrown off, by anesthesia or illness or other factors, a person can feel outside his own body.

I learned about this in the book “The Ego Tunnel” by neurologist T Metzinger.

OK. But what if the OBE person is capable of perceiving things actually happening out of his normal usual senses’ spatial range ?  For instance when the OBE person is in a coma, has his body in the ambulance going to the hospital and yet can hear the whole conversation his friends are having in the car following the ambulance ?  Would Metzinger hypothesis embrass this situation ?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 April 2012 06:02
 
Agua - 25 April 2012 12:39 AM
hannahfriend - 24 April 2012 11:59 PM

One theory about OBE is that it is a temporary malfunction of our sense of connection with our body.  We don’t often think about having this sense, but it is what enables us to know that it is our hands typing on the computer and our feet touching the ground as we walk.  When this sense is thrown off, by anesthesia or illness or other factors, a person can feel outside his own body.

I learned about this in the book “The Ego Tunnel” by neurologist T Metzinger.

OK. But what if the OBE person is capable of perceiving things actually happening out of his normal usual senses’ spatial range ?  For instance when the OBE person is in a coma, has his body in the ambulance going to the hospital and yet can hear the whole conversation his friends are having in the car following the ambulance ?  Would Metzinger hypothesis embrass this situation ?

Didn’t happen. OBE is like psychics and lottery numbers.

 
 
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