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Spirit, Mind and Body distinction

 
MARTIN_UK
 
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MARTIN_UK
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25 April 2012 06:26
 
Mike78 - 24 April 2012 06:09 PM
TheBrotherMario - 24 April 2012 08:29 AM

Whenever a person knows nothing about something, or has no personal experience of something, they turn to others for their information.

Thirty-five years ago, I PRAYED for my grandmother (who was a real bitter woman), my mother (who was living in an inner city 3rd floor apartment smoking cigarettes), and my sister (who was a professional woman that didn’t want children). My PRAYER was a daily month-long rosary (all 15 mysteries) that I PRAYED in front of a statue of MARY, the MOTHER OF GOD, while kneeling on a marble floor. During that month all three women took ill and ended up in the hospital. My grandmother had heart trouble, my mother has breathing trouble, and my sister has a mysterious eye illness that doctors never discovered what it was. The results of these illnesses were—my grandmother became a much better person, my mother quit smoking (she is still alive today at 87) was placed (doctor’s orders) to the front of a list of people waiting to get into a wonderful small house in a new development for the elderly (which she did the day she left the hospital), and my sister could not return to work for months, but regain sight in her eye after getting pregnant with my niece.

So pardon me for reading Rob’s post and wanting to shove it up his ass.

This is beautiful.  I mean you prayed for these women for a month, and they all got sick.  Apparently, you have the midas touch of crap when it comes to prayer.  If it were not for the intervention of medical science, who knows, you might have prayed them all to death.  Thank goodness for doctors.

Funny you should share these events BM, I share your touch of crap view too Mike.

I have found I can have similar influences on events in my own life. For weeks now I have slept with the back door key placed carefully under my tongue, while I concentrate intensely on friends and family, I have noticed too that they get ill and some change their habits and choices completely.
The power of the key is indisputable, but I have found that the longer I do this for and the more people I consider in my thoughts, the more results I get….cool isn’t it!!

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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25 April 2012 06:35
 

LOL
Oh, Martin, you are a card!

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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25 April 2012 10:57
 

Reality is far from “mere”, as the “happy” Australian would have you believe. It is two-sided, with the “mere” physical side in our view, and the profound supernatural side hidden from us unless we allow it to enter into our lives.

Now, Rob, the “happy-slappy” Australian, wrote a meandering paragraph about me and my need for being “special”, and my inability to cope with this “mere reality” that “happy-slappy-slurpy cards” love so much.

We are “special”. We are the spokespersons for the Universe, created out of love and returning to love. We “delight” God the most out of all his creatures, and he “plays among us” according to what is best for us.

As far as my inability to cope with mere reality goes—while he was writing his fictional diatribe about me, inspired from the opinionated hatred of religion, I was power-washing a huge house, being at the top of a 40-ft ladder for most of the time. You see, my “spirituality”, as I have told you so-called atheists before, has given me a life without fear and with a love of hard work.

The “cards” Rob and Martin do what for a living, and have what powers of character that make them power-houses of “mere reality”, all given to them by being nonspirituals?

And, the poor writer Mike78, that gets his ass kissed by other poor writers, what are his fruits from his so-called atheism?

Anyway, here’s another prayer heard (there are many more to come, “happy-slappy-slurpy-burpy” Rob):

Thirty-five years ago, I was on day four of a nine-day novena to Theresa, The Little Flower, a novena that promises an encounter with roses at some point during the nine days. I was painting a house on a naval base on this day four of the novena, when the paint fumes dissipated and a powerful and warm scent of roses engulfed my face. I asked the other painters around me if they smelled the roses. They said no. The rose scent lasted for the rest of the day, no matter where I went.

Try the novena to The Little Flower, with sincerity, then get back to Project Reason with the results.

[ Edited: 25 April 2012 10:59 by TheBrotherMario]
 
 
MARTIN_UK
 
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MARTIN_UK
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25 April 2012 15:22
 
TheBrotherMario - 25 April 2012 08:57 AM

...I was painting a house on a naval base on this day four of the novena, when the paint fumes dissipated and a powerful and warm scent of roses engulfed my face. I asked the other painters around me if they smelled the roses. They said no. The rose scent lasted for the rest of the day, no matter where I went….

“Paint solvents can cause severe health problems for workers. Workers should be informed about the unique potential health effects of the chemicals they work with. One chemical, toluene, is a sweet smelling and volatile liquid that produces fumes that cause problems for those with asthma when breathed at lower levels. Greater levels of inhalation lead to euphoria, confusion, delusions, hallucinations, vertigo, seizures, loss of muscle coordination and even coma. Exposure over time can cause blindness, deafness, decreased cognitive ability, loss of smell and a long-term loss of muscle coordination.”

 
Galactic Beach
 
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Galactic Beach
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25 April 2012 15:44
 
MARTIN UK - 25 April 2012 01:22 PM
TheBrotherMario - 25 April 2012 08:57 AM

...I was painting a house on a naval base on this day four of the novena, when the paint fumes dissipated and a powerful and warm scent of roses engulfed my face. I asked the other painters around me if they smelled the roses. They said no. The rose scent lasted for the rest of the day, no matter where I went….

“Paint solvents can cause severe health problems for workers. Workers should be informed about the unique potential health effects of the chemicals they work with. One chemical, toluene, is a sweet smelling and volatile liquid that produces fumes that cause problems for those with asthma when breathed at lower levels. Greater levels of inhalation lead to euphoria, confusion, delusions, hallucinations, vertigo, seizures, loss of muscle coordination and even coma. Exposure over time can cause blindness, deafness, decreased cognitive ability, loss of smell and a long-term loss of muscle coordination.”

lol Mario was high

 
Galactic Beach
 
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Galactic Beach
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25 April 2012 15:55
 

or it just did something to his senses

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 April 2012 15:56
 
DanielMoore1991 - 25 April 2012 01:44 PM
MARTIN UK - 25 April 2012 01:22 PM
TheBrotherMario - 25 April 2012 08:57 AM

...I was painting a house on a naval base on this day four of the novena, when the paint fumes dissipated and a powerful and warm scent of roses engulfed my face. I asked the other painters around me if they smelled the roses. They said no. The rose scent lasted for the rest of the day, no matter where I went….

“Paint solvents can cause severe health problems for workers. Workers should be informed about the unique potential health effects of the chemicals they work with. One chemical, toluene, is a sweet smelling and volatile liquid that produces fumes that cause problems for those with asthma when breathed at lower levels. Greater levels of inhalation lead to euphoria, confusion, delusions, hallucinations, vertigo, seizures, loss of muscle coordination and even coma. Exposure over time can cause blindness, deafness, decreased cognitive ability, loss of smell and a long-term loss of muscle coordination.”

lol Mario was high

Permanently.

 
 
Agua
 
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Agua
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26 April 2012 01:15
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 21 April 2012 04:36 AM

About was 8 or 9 years old, Sarlynn. I wasn’t frightened, just surprised. This was in the early sixties in a small country town and I had never heard of OBE’s at that stage. There was no ‘silver chord’ and I wouldn’t have known what spirituality was in those days. I just found myself hovering up near the ceiling whilst lying in bed before sleep. It happened twice. I didn’t tell anyone because even then I suspected it might sound slightly weird. I suspect it was something happening in my brain as it was shutting down ready for sleep - nothing spooky. I find it amusing how those who want ‘more’ clutch at straws like this.

There have been studies done on NDE’s and OBE’s and as far as I know they have all come up empty handed. I will look up the studies and post the links.

Rob, do you remember if you could see things from the ceiling viewpoint you would not have been able to see from the lying-in-bed position ?

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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26 April 2012 01:28
 

Oh, yes. I could see my bed down below and my brother in the other bed asleep. I imagine if someone had walked into the room right then I would have felt that I was seeing them from my vantage point above. They, however, would have seen young Rob in the usual position in his bed where he indeed actually was. His perception of being up near the ceiling being the result of some temporary circuitry problem going on in his brain between wakefulness and sleep. Nothing spooky or supertnatural happening. Sorry guys.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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26 April 2012 01:58
 
Agua - 25 April 2012 12:39 AM
hannahfriend - 24 April 2012 11:59 PM

One theory about OBE is that it is a temporary malfunction of our sense of connection with our body.  We don’t often think about having this sense, but it is what enables us to know that it is our hands typing on the computer and our feet touching the ground as we walk.  When this sense is thrown off, by anesthesia or illness or other factors, a person can feel outside his own body.

I learned about this in the book “The Ego Tunnel” by neurologist T Metzinger.

OK. But what if the OBE person is capable of perceiving things actually happening out of his normal usual senses’ spatial range ?  For instance when the OBE person is in a coma, has his body in the ambulance going to the hospital and yet can hear the whole conversation his friends are having in the car following the ambulance ?  Would Metzinger hypothesis embrass this situation ?

First, let me correct a misstatement.  Metzinger is actually a prof of philosophy in Germany, specializing in consciousness studies.  But his book is based on neurological science, and he describes much research in the field.  His approach is to understand consciousness from the point of view of evolutionary biology.

According to his survey of OBE, there is no solid, documented evidence of a person doing anything like what you suggest above, just anecdotal claims.  As a matter of fact, some researchers have placed certain obvious markers in hospital rooms just to see if people having an OBE could see them (placed so they can only be seen from a ceiling perspective), but thus far, this type of experiment has not been successful, mainly because it is impossible to predict beforehand if someone is going to have an OBE.

You could say that perhaps Metzinger is unaware of all the evidence available, but he seems pretty knowledgeable and credible.  Read his book (or that part), and judge for yourself.

Of course, scientific research in the field is limited.  So one might choose not to dismiss the weight of the anecdotes.

 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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26 April 2012 03:04
 

Yeah, it’s like all the anecdotal evidence for miracles. It just does not stand up to proper scientific scrutiny. And as much as the faith heads and mystic merchants would like it to, it never will sand up to scrutiny. But that won’t stop those who want to believe such nonsense. They just blame science for not being able to detect anything - as if science could detect the undetectable and make possible the logically impossible. There will always be nuts like Mario. Fortunately they are mostly ignored by science and by most peopel in everyday life and it’s only in places like this that they get a look in. That’s why the twisted sister is on ignore. I only see responses to his nutty posts and never engage him in debate anymore. Life’s too short for such nonsense and is better spent on reality.

 
Agua
 
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Agua
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26 April 2012 05:53
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 25 April 2012 11:28 PM

Oh, yes. I could see my bed down below and my brother in the other bed asleep. I imagine if someone had walked into the room right then I would have felt that I was seeing them from my vantage point above. They, however, would have seen young Rob in the usual position in his bed where he indeed actually was. His perception of being up near the ceiling being the result of some temporary circuitry problem going on in his brain between wakefulness and sleep. Nothing spooky or supertnatural happening. Sorry guys.

I find this perception quite interesting however, because I wonder what was the perceptic body-organ or body-system able to relay to the brain the view from that point near the ceiling.  It could not be the eyeballs system, as far as I know.  But you say there was sight caught from the ceiling viewpoint.  Any idea or cue about the temporary circuitry problem going on in the brain then ?

 
Agua
 
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26 April 2012 06:04
 
hannahfriend - 25 April 2012 11:58 PM

You could say that perhaps Metzinger is unaware of all the evidence available, but he seems pretty knowledgeable and credible.  Read his book (or that part), and judge for yourself.

Of course, scientific research in the field is limited.  So one might choose not to dismiss the weight of the anecdotes.

Thank you, Hannah, for these precisions.  I’ll try to find his book.
In an earlier post on this thread, I mentionned the Jean Morzelle’s OBE where the guy had a heart attack and heart surgery operation.  He reports he had this OBE while his body was in the coma and under surgery.  He said he could see all of what was going on in the room and also in the corridors along the room.  And he was able to see for a while from the room ground.  He saw a number under the surgery table, the table serial number actually.  He reported it to the surgeon after the operation.  The surgeon did not believe him and told him it was usual hallucinations which could occur from anaesthetization products used.  The surgeon did not know about this serial number at all actually and he checked it afterwards.  He had to admit the guy was right about the number.  Of course anyone can deny this as any other people testimony as long as he has not lived through this kind of thing himself.  But it’s still an example of an unknown number discovered or perceived under OBE.

[ Edited: 26 April 2012 06:08 by Agua]
 
robbrownsyd
 
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robbrownsyd
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26 April 2012 06:17
 
Agua - 26 April 2012 03:53 AM
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 25 April 2012 11:28 PM

Oh, yes. I could see my bed down below and my brother in the other bed asleep. I imagine if someone had walked into the room right then I would have felt that I was seeing them from my vantage point above. They, however, would have seen young Rob in the usual position in his bed where he indeed actually was. His perception of being up near the ceiling being the result of some temporary circuitry problem going on in his brain between wakefulness and sleep. Nothing spooky or supertnatural happening. Sorry guys.

I find this perception quite interesting however, because I wonder what was the perceptic body-organ or body-system able to relay to the brain the view from that point near the ceiling.  It could not be the eyeballs system, as far as I know.  But you say there was sight caught from the ceiling viewpoint.  Any idea or cue about the temporary circuitry problem going on in the brain then ?

Clearly, there were no eyeballs or other “perceptic body-organ or body-system” floating up near the ceiling. That would be contrary to the laws of nature. However, the brain, being still awake and having been left without input from the body, produced images to itself to idicate that it and the body containing it were at least ‘somewhere’. The images of the room below were ‘imagined’ by the brain. It knew the room well so no problem there. I expect the same happens in other cases even when a person sees a room for the first time before the OBE. For the most part, though, reports of OBEs have shown by the studies to be bunkum.

I know this is not what faith-heads and mystic-merchants want to hear.  We can lead supernaturalists to evidence (or, as in this case,  the lack thereof)  but we can’t make them think. Like the TwistedSister they’ll just keep making stuff up and believing what they want to believe. That’s too bad for them.

 
MARTIN_UK
 
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MARTIN_UK
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26 April 2012 06:30
 
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 26 April 2012 04:17 AM
Agua - 26 April 2012 03:53 AM
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft (Rob) - 25 April 2012 11:28 PM

Oh, yes. I could see my bed down below and my brother in the other bed asleep. I imagine if someone had walked into the room right then I would have felt that I was seeing them from my vantage point above. They, however, would have seen young Rob in the usual position in his bed where he indeed actually was. His perception of being up near the ceiling being the result of some temporary circuitry problem going on in his brain between wakefulness and sleep. Nothing spooky or supertnatural happening. Sorry guys.

I find this perception quite interesting however, because I wonder what was the perceptic body-organ or body-system able to relay to the brain the view from that point near the ceiling.  It could not be the eyeballs system, as far as I know.  But you say there was sight caught from the ceiling viewpoint.  Any idea or cue about the temporary circuitry problem going on in the brain then ?

Clearly, there were no eyeballs or other “perceptic body-organ or body-system” floating up near the ceiling. That would be contrary to the laws of nature. However, the brain, being still awake and having been left without input from the body, produced images to itself to idicate that it and the body containing it were at least ‘somewhere’. The images of the room below were ‘imagined’ by the brain. It knew the room well so no problem there. I expect the same happens in other cases even when a person sees a room for the first time before the OBE. For the most part, though, reports of OBEs have shown by the studies to be bunkum.

I know this is not what faith-heads and mystic-merchants want to hear.  We can lead supernaturalists to evidence (or, as in this case,  the lack thereof)  but we can’t make them think. Like the TwistedSister they’ll just keep making stuff up and believing what they want to believe. That’s too bad for them.

I remember as a child having night terrors, where I was awake as far as I was aware and could see all types of creeping creatures and beings in my room around me, my screams would wake my parents who would enter the room, I could see them enter also and as they consoled me the hallucinations would disappear. It seems I was dreaming with my eyes open, mixing reality with images from my brain while still in a state of sleep.

 
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