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Why do Christian based religions need HELL as the ultimate destination for Non-Believers?

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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18 August 2014 11:17
 
envy me - 17 August 2014 07:00 PM

Are all-cap words scary for you, Byron? Or maybe they only summon up your moral indignation?


Yup. Clearly they terrify me.

... 

Wait ... that’s not it, they indicate dogmatism, actually. It’s not a guarantee, but it’s true often enough that I ignore such posts and those who post them until/unless a reason not to do so presents itself.

Usually such a reason does not, in fact, present itself.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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25 August 2014 00:08
 
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.

 
EN
 
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EN
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25 August 2014 00:32
 
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.

Yes, I understand that hell is worse than death, but I no longer believe in eternal hell.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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25 August 2014 22:15
 
EN - 24 August 2014 10:32 PM
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.

Yes, I understand that hell is worse than death, but I no longer believe in eternal hell.

OK, we’re on the same page then.

I remember reading an interview with the music director at a local church.  I’d been to that church, and the congregation itself came across as very warm, welcoming, and casual.  The music director was a hip guy in his early thirties—wore an earring, had dyed hair that stuck up on top.  He wrote praise band songs in a soft rock style, and the songs were all about God’s love and comfort in times of trouble.  Yet in the interview, when asked about the fate of non-believers, the director said, sheepishly, sorry but they go to hell.  Says so in the Bible. 

Can’t judge a fundamentalist by his resemblance to Rod Stewart.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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27 August 2014 02:02
 

The guy likes his caps lock and his scare quotes. We should introduce him to….. you know.

 
Persuading Others for Eternity
 
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Persuading Others for Eternity
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01 September 2014 23:00
 
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.


Hell makes sense to me logically just like prison makes sense to me. The world and universe both have embedded within them a sense of right and wrong, justice and evil. Even as prison is necessary for the vilest and most violent, it seems that hell is logically a place for those deemed the most evil or who violate the standards of whomever created the universe. While many may not believe hell exists, think it should exist, or is even just, in principle the concept of hell is no different than the concept of prison. It will be interesting to see if it does exist who gets a chance to determine the veracity of religious dogma considering hell is a belief of most religions.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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02 September 2014 00:54
 
Persuading Others for Eternity - 01 September 2014 09:00 PM
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.


Hell makes sense to me logically just like prison makes sense to me. The world and universe both have embedded within them a sense of right and wrong, justice and evil. Even as prison is necessary for the vilest and most violent, it seems that hell is logically a place for those deemed the most evil or who violate the standards of whomever created the universe. While many may not believe hell exists, think it should exist, or is even just, in principle the concept of hell is no different than the concept of prison. It will be interesting to see if it does exist who gets a chance to determine the veracity of religious dogma considering hell is a belief of most religions.

Many would disagree with you on this.  Most offenses that we consider “evil” are not so for other species.  For example murder of a rival.  Or even murder of children.  My understanding is that humans consider these evil because our hyper-social species generally must shun murder in order to function successfully.  If we were lions, murder or infanticide would not be a sin, but a survival strategy.  So good and evil have evolved with us.  They did not exist before us.

But maybe I am taking your statement wrong.  If you are positing that these general notion of opposites exist, rather than their specific manifestations, then I would agree.

 
Gregoryhhh
 
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02 September 2014 01:15
 

To answer the question posed: Perhaps it’s because “In the beginning, man created God in his own image.”  - You get heaven and hell from man - not from any one, or any thing, else.

[ Edited: 02 September 2014 01:20 by Gregoryhhh]
 
 
SteveMcKerracher
 
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02 September 2014 19:50
 
Persuading Others for Eternity - 01 September 2014 09:00 PM
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.


Hell makes sense to me logically just like prison makes sense to me. The world and universe both have embedded within them a sense of right and wrong, justice and evil. Even as prison is necessary for the vilest and most violent, it seems that hell is logically a place for those deemed the most evil or who violate the standards of whomever created the universe. While many may not believe hell exists, think it should exist, or is even just, in principle the concept of hell is no different than the concept of prison. It will be interesting to see if it does exist who gets a chance to determine the veracity of religious dogma considering hell is a belief of most religions.

Do you believe in eternal hell?  That’s a heck of a lot different than prison.

Do you think its rational that a god, existing in reality, that denies all evidence of its existence, would judge people based on lack of a belief, that it withheld evidence for?  Would that be a “good” god?  If we grant the huge assumption that a god exists, and then the huge assumption that an afterlife exists, and then the huge assumption that this god will judge the presumed afterlife, and then the huge assumption that this judgement will be for eternity… 

Can we really even imagine that this god would be judging people it CREATED TO BE RATIONAL, for not believing based on lack of evidence, the god denied us?

Granting all those assumptions, it seems much more likely to judge based on actions, rather than beliefs.

Who do you think should go to heaven, and who to hell:

1.  A devout Christian, active in the church, knows the bible like the back of his hand, and seems to have an active relationship with Jesus, having publicly accepted him into his heart.  BUT in the privacy of his home, he mentally, verbally, physically, and sexually abuses his wife and three daughters for years, making their life a living hell, and causing trauma that will probably never heal. (This from experience, not a hypothetical, and I know of dozens of similar cases from personal experience.)

2. An Atheist who has honesty, and integrity, believes everything he does based on reason and evidence, and in so doing is true to himself, always being open to new perspectives, and does his best to constantly make the world a better place for having lived in it.

According to your holy book, who goes to heaven, and who goes to hell?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 September 2014 20:17
 
Persuading Others for Eternity - 01 September 2014 09:00 PM
Hannah2 - 24 August 2014 10:08 PM
EN - 17 August 2014 07:30 PM
envy me - 17 August 2014 05:51 PM

I think EN sees damnation as not an eternal fiery torture, but simply death, if I remember right.

Death (cessation of existence) would be worst that could happen, as I see it. It appears more likely that God will simply be reconciled to everyone in the end. But I suppose I have to leave open the possibility that some wouldn’t want that even if it were offered to them.

Hell is way worse than death.  Would you rather have an eternal root canal or be non-sentient?

I think hell is more about justice than control.  It is the ultimate comeuppance for evildoers, in case they weren’t punished sufficiently in their lifetime.  When I Googled “hell,” I found the concept was in many ancient religions, all over the world.  For people who believe in a soul, it just makes sense that bad souls go to a bad place.


Hell makes sense to me logically just like prison makes sense to me. The world and universe both have embedded within them a sense of right and wrong, justice and evil. Even as prison is necessary for the vilest and most violent, it seems that hell is logically a place for those deemed the most evil or who violate the standards of whomever created the universe. While many may not believe hell exists, think it should exist, or is even just, in principle the concept of hell is no different than the concept of prison. It will be interesting to see if it does exist who gets a chance to determine the veracity of religious dogma considering hell is a belief of most religions.

The concept of hell is incompatible with the concept of an omnibenevolent deity.  Full stop.

Comparing hell to prison is like comparing a long, slow agonizing death by cancer to a stubbed toe. 

(Eternity of suffering is inconceivable as any form of moral justice - particularly when one considers are the myriad sermonized ways one can get there without actually harming anyone.  Crimes of harm are bad - for sure - don’t get me wrong.  But the concept of an eternity of suffering is not related to justice, it is more like retribution.)

 
 
GPzW
 
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GPzW
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23 October 2014 18:34
 

I think the historical reason Christianity needed a hell was because the Greeks had a strong mythology influence of the lands they conquered that the idea of not including this new god zone into the Jewish myth was just unthinkable.

So that was why the locals had it and character Jesus was a construct of the local knowledge, trends and beliefs, then the NT bible decades later was the evolution of the Jesus and his memes in literary forms.

It was picked up in Arab culture too as expressed in the Quran, where I would add Pegasus, a winged horse, such a cool idea that Mohammed wanted it for him to ride so it too got included.

I’m sure Hitchens could show how other ‘religion’ niceties gets incorporated into the leaderships divinity in the same ways. No Pegasus at the palace, but 18 holes in 18 shots is still a miracle.

 
Dennis Campbell
 
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Dennis Campbell
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23 October 2014 19:36
 

2. An Atheist who has honesty, and integrity, believes everything he does based on reason and evidence, and in so doing is true to himself, always being open to new perspectives, and does his best to constantly make the world a better place for having lived in it.

Much as I’d like to agree, being one, but “atheist” does not imply any basis on reasoning and evidence, etc etc.  I suspect, or hope, that most atheists are in fact more likely to use reason and evidence more, but that may be an artifact of not subscribing to mainstream religions.  I’ve known too many convicts, hundreds, who’re atheist, if they bothered to think about it, but reason and evidence played little part in their thinking.  Selected sample though.

 
 
Tim_Jackowicz
 
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24 October 2014 00:17
 

Could we not compare religions to species of animals in the fact that natural selection applies to religion in the same manner that it applies to living things?  Meaning that there can be another way to view it; not necessarily that religion is designed with the principles of heaven and hell to have a certain hold over humanity, but that it has a certain hold over humanity because of principles that have outlasted the principles of other religions.

There’s been many religions that have evolved and died.  Without claiming to know the details of them all, I assume that many had a much larger grey area between life and death…like the Greek myths of being able to visit and return from the underworld, ect.  I don’t think it does much to instill quite as much fear if people believe there is a way to escape.

The idea of the Christian hell is one component of the religion that makes it a fate without argument; live wrong, break rules, and that’s where you go forever. No reprieve, no hero to rescue you, it’s final and it’s eternal.  It’s the pinnacle of an end-game statement.

Christianity has elements to it that provide solace to absolutely anyone depending upon how it’s interpreted. The poor and weak use it to reinforce the goodness of selflessness and sacrifice. The wealthy use it to justify the things they do for their own ends.  Warriors use it to justify the fight, priests use it to justify peace., the slave uses it to justify their servitude and the slave master to justify owning his slaves.  The bad person can use it to good ends just as easily as the bad person can use it to bad ends.  The common thread is always absolute bliss or absolute torment as an end game. 

Maybe we are still dealing with the last religions because those are the ones that have been the most universally applicable, which certainly makes them the most difficult to grow out of.

 
 
Dennis Campbell
 
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24 October 2014 00:24
 

If you study religion, you’re studying mankind.  Not any god.

 
 
GPzW
 
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24 October 2014 07:05
 
Dennis Campbell - 23 October 2014 10:24 PM

If you study religion, you’re studying mankind.  Not any god.

I am seeing more of a trend that religions are an evolution on a theme. You start off with a god, find mammoth bones and now giants get into the myth as a battle between and and giants. Bury your dead with favourite toys and an underworld gets added, add a vengeful god you get a hell and a heaven, add a want-a-be warlord king you get rewards in heaven as your troops murder that other lot.

So what you study is a on-going mutation which hasn’t really stopped even to this day as you get splinter cults and whole book revisionists like the Mormons and Islam.

But it is a house of cards when the religion writes these mutations down and claim it infallible which is why rational thinking is trumping faith by pointing out the Earth isn’t flat as written, or salt and fresh water do mix, so it follows one incorrect statement makes the whole book no longer infallible.


But I do agree if you change it to if you study of religion by its actual history of what they actual do rather than claim they did, you are indeed witnessing why man really does like he does. For instance, to me a background of the actual historical Mohammed shows an orphan grown into egotistical man, very self hating but over compensating to be in love with himself and the centre of the universe. He can’t stand being in the wrong and throws frequent tantrums, he is a bully and gets pleasure from punishing those about him who don’t give into him. Give him a high position within a family based tribe, another bigger tribe that argue with him you get a the evolution of bandit to despotic warlord using religion and god to justify every evil action he does for the good, truly a Machiavellian character where whatever the means are will be justified by the ends by his god.

 
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