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The Mythicist Position and the Reason Project

 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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13 May 2014 16:11
 

I’ve been a great admirer of Sam Harris and his books from the start but, I’m very disappointed that the Reason Project has not discussed the Mythicist Position, which I would think the Project Reason be interested in.

I have contacted the Reason Project several times on these issues from the beginning and I have never heard back - not once. It just seems like they’re avoiding these extremely significant issues to me. I hope I’m wrong. If so, they are doing a monumental disservice for omitting the mythicist position, astrotheology and mythology.

Nobody else alive today is explaining in as much great detail how the origins of religious concepts have their foundation based in natural phenomena. It just seems like basic common sense and an Occam’s razor explanation to me - it’s about as reasonable as it gets and I would think the Reason Project would AT LEAST want to check into it.

What is a Mythicist? | The Mythicist Position | Mythicism
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2160

Why I am A Mythicist
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4344

Here’s an example of how pathetically dumb non-believers look when they obviously know nothing about astrotheology and the mythology that goes with it:

Richard Dawkins on Christmas and Zeitgeist Part 1
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4546

Come on you guys, we could be doing so much better.

The Mythicist Position video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63BNKhGAVRQ

[ Edited: 10 July 2014 14:32 by Veronica95]
 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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13 May 2014 16:16
 

Scholars and others who’ve actually read Acharya’s books are quite supportive:

“I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations ... I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock”
- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D’s
Review of Acharya’s book “Christ in Egypt”

“Your scholarship is relentless! The research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration.”
- Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology
Review of Acharya’s book “Christ in Egypt”

“I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!”
- Dr. Robert Eisenman

“I’ve known people with triple Ph.D’s who haven’t come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?”
- Pastor David Bruce, M.Div, North Park Seminary, Chicago

“...I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating.”
- Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor, Presbyterian Church, Houston, TX

 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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13 May 2014 16:20
 

The mythicist position is as reasonable & logical as it gets but only a few are even aware it exists. That’s why I posted here. I hope that Sam Harris and the board members will consider it as a worthy project to promote since it is a bridge between theism & atheism. I’d love to see D.M. Murdock working with the Reason Project board to help promote the mythicist position.

A major hurdle is that even academia denies the mythicist position and refuses to take it seriously - when it comes to certain religion like Christianity or Islam. That needs to change before these two religions blow us all up.

Earl Doherty emphasizes the academic point:

“Why is it that no individual scholar or group of scholars has undertaken a concerted effort in recent times to discredit the mythicist position? (The brief addresses that have been made to it in various publications are outlined in my Main Article “Postscript”.) In the heyday of the great mythicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a few valiant efforts were offered. However, both mainstream scholarship and the mythicist branch itself have made dramatic leaps since then. Biblical research has moved into bold new territory in the last several decades: unearthing a wealth of ancient documents, arriving at a new understanding of elements like Q, the sectarian nature of early Christianity, the Cynic roots of the great Gospel teachings, and so on; an almost unprecedented “critical” dimension to New Testament scholarship has emerged.

And yet the mythicist position continues to be vilified, disdained, dismissed. We would condemn any physicist, any anthropologist, any linguist, any mathematician, any scholar of any sort who professes to work in a field that makes even a partial bow to principles of logic and scientific research who yet ignored, reviled, condemned largely without examination a legitimate, persistent theory in his or her discipline. There are tremendous problems in New Testament research, problems that have been grappled with for generations and show no sign of getting closer to solution. Agreement is lacking on countless topics, and yesterday’s theories are being continually overturned. There is almost a civil war going on within the ranks of Jesus study. Why not give the mythicist option some serious consideration? Why not honestly evaluate it to see if it could provide some of the missing answers? Or, if it turns out that the case is fatally flawed, then put it to rest once and for all.

Doing that would require one essential thing: taking it seriously, approaching the subject having an open mind that the theory might have some merit. Sadly, that is the most difficult step and the one which most critics have had the greatest difficulty taking. It is all in the mindset, whether of the Christian believer whose confessional interests are overriding, or of the professional scholar who could never consider that their life’s work might be fatally compromised.”

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2160

 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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13 May 2014 16:26
 

Academia needs a very serious shake up too:

“...As for this tiresome business about there being “no scholar” or “no serious scholar” who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn’t it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion…. “

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D’s

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3110

 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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13 May 2014 16:33
 

There’s also no reason why Dr. Harris &/or the Reason Project can’t comment on the Zeitgeist Part 1 video:

“Zeitgeist: The Movie, Part 1 on religion (2007), is only around 25 minutes long and is merely a basic introduction into the world of comparative religion, mythology and astrotheology. Zeitgeist has been translated into nearly 3 dozen languages and has received over 300 million online views worldwide - so there’s clearly quite a bit of interest in this subject.”

“The religion section is the strongest of the whole work”

- Peter Joseph

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2997

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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13 May 2014 23:34
 

If nothing else you are tenacious, I’ll give you that.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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14 May 2014 02:19
 

We constantly post that gods aren’t real, Veronica.  I’m all over this forum denying Jesus existed based on an obvious lack of contemporary evidence for his existence.  The easiest one is, the Jews’ god pays an extended visit to their capital city to deliver a revision to their holy book and the Jews don’t notice.  Neither do the Romans who supposedly executed the god.

But mostly, denying gods exist also denies Jesus existed.

 
Veronica95
 
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15 May 2014 16:03
 
Skipshot - 14 May 2014 12:19 AM

We constantly post that gods aren’t real, Veronica.  I’m all over this forum denying Jesus existed based on an obvious lack of contemporary evidence for his existence.  The easiest one is, the Jews’ god pays an extended visit to their capital city to deliver a revision to their holy book and the Jews don’t notice.  Neither do the Romans who supposedly executed the god.

But mostly, denying gods exist also denies Jesus existed.

Hi Skipshot,

I get that many have posted gods aren’t real here but, to really win the theist/atheist debate, history has shown denying that gods exist alone has never ever been enough. That’s why atheism alone has failed and will continue to fail. Read/watch what Sam Harris has to say about atheism in the link below in the 4th post down:

Acharya’s Work Complements Sam Harris’s Philosophy
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3588

What’s fantastic about the mythicist position is that they seek out the ancient primary sources to demonstrate where all of the religious concepts originated. So, it’s a scientific evidence based position. It turns out that many of the worlds most cherished religious beliefs originated from natural phenomena. It’s an Occam’s razor explanation that one would think that Sam Harris and the Reason Project would at least want to check into since mythicism and the mythicist position offer the very best and most reasonable explanation for the creation and evolution of religious concepts.

Watch the mythicist position video and read the links in the info box for further more info. Sam Harris and the Reason Project would be wise to adopt the mythicist position.

The Mythicist Position
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63BNKhGAVRQ

 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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15 May 2014 16:15
 

Skipshot, for a perfect example of what I’m talking about ... here’s my thread discussing a new book demonstrating that Moses never existed and the Exodus never happened but, the book goes far, FAR beyond just that by showing where all of those concepts originated from and it’s absolutely FASCINATING! If everybody knew about this stuff the world would definitely be a much better, more peaceful place:

http://www.project-reason.org/forum/viewthread/28458/

Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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20 May 2014 02:20
 

I suppose I’m a mythicist in principle, but I’ll have to look into these sites to see whether I meet all the criteria. I’ve often been in the situation of describing myself in ways that I believe to be perfectly reasonable given the definitions of the terms, only to find that someone else has used the same terms to identify I position that is contradictory to mine.

...checking…

Okay, I’m compatible with the position. These sites present information that I’m well aware of, and seem to be unique mainly in promoting certain people who seek to make a living or a reputation from their work (and there’s nothing wrong with that in itself). As long as new dogmatism doesn’t come about, I cannot object. My point in terms of whether or not some religious figures are mythical is that it doesn’t matter. Far more important in terms of mundane concern are the interpretations that self-described adherents put on the figures and their associated documents and traditions in support of their own political and economic interests.

[ Edited: 20 May 2014 03:01 by Poldano]
 
 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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05 June 2014 14:51
 

Hi Poldano,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Poldano: “My point in terms of whether or not some religious figures are mythical is that it doesn’t matter.”

In my view, I think it’s imperative that it matters. That’s a very pivital point to emphasize. Religion, for some, is the most important thing in their lives and we really need to impress upon them that if their religion is so important to them, then, accuracy, honesty, credible evidence and whether or not their god or savior existed should be equally important. It matters.

I mean, how silly to believe in things that are believed to be from god that have no basis in reality and are easily debunked. This is why I feel so strongly about the mythicist position; faith and euphoria do not trump credible evidence that actually exists.

We need to emphasize that if their religion is so important to them then, accuracy should matter greatly.

Poldano: “Far more important in terms of mundane concern are the interpretations that self-described adherents put on the figures and their associated documents and traditions in support of their own political and economic interests.”

This is secondary to me since their interpretations as well as political and economic agendas are easily debunked with valid primary sources and scholar commentary on them.

It should probably start with an academia shake-up:

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3110

Acharya’s Work Complements Sam Harris’s Philosophy
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3588

 
Huxley4ever
 
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Huxley4ever
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26 June 2014 22:30
 
Veronica95 - 05 June 2014 12:51 PM

Hi Poldano,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Poldano: “My point in terms of whether or not some religious figures are mythical is that it doesn’t matter.”

In my view, I think it’s imperative that it matters. That’s a very pivital point to emphasize. Religion, for some, is the most important thing in their lives and we really need to impress upon them that if their religion is so important to them, then, accuracy, honesty, credible evidence and whether or not their god or savior existed should be equally important. It matters.

I mean, how silly to believe in things that are believed to be from god that have no basis in reality and are easily debunked. This is why I feel so strongly about the mythicist position; faith and euphoria do not trump credible evidence that actually exists.

We need to emphasize that if their religion is so important to them then, accuracy should matter greatly.

Poldano: “Far more important in terms of mundane concern are the interpretations that self-described adherents put on the figures and their associated documents and traditions in support of their own political and economic interests.”

This is secondary to me since their interpretations as well as political and economic agendas are easily debunked with valid primary sources and scholar commentary on them.

It should probably start with an academia shake-up:

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3110

Acharya’s Work Complements Sam Harris’s Philosophy
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3588

Hi Veronica,

The religious seem to ignore evidence.  More evidence is just something they will ignore more.  That is why they are called persons of faith.  Take it from someone brought up in a country that fervently denied the existsnce of Jesus, as a kid, i did not even know who jesus was, so telling me he did not exist changed nothing, i had no clue what they were talking about.  Early Christians did not disprove Zeus, and we don’t need to disprove Jesus, we just need to come to a point when there is a better, more fulfilling narrative for people.

 
 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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27 June 2014 16:53
 

Hi Huxley4ever, I agree with you that many of the religious faithful will continue to ignore or omit valid evidence as they always have, however, that is not an excuse to be lazy about the facts and evidence for everybody else. Two wrongs do not make a right. The facts and credible evidence should matter, regardless of the Nancy naysayers and critics.

Again, Religion, for some, is the most important thing in their lives and we really need to impress upon them that if their religion is so important to them, then, accuracy, honesty, credible evidence and whether or not their god or savior existed should be equally important. It matters.

I mean, how silly to believe in things that are believed to be from god that have no basis in reality and are easily debunked. This is why I feel so strongly about the mythicist position; faith and euphoria do not trump credible evidence that actually exists.

We need to emphasize that if their religion is so important to them then, accuracy should matter greatly.

“Christians did not disprove Zeus, and we don’t need to disprove Jesus”

Instead, they just forced their religion and calendar upon the masses and slaughtered those who refused by the tune of 250 million:

Pagan Destruction Chronology
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2128

“If there were valid scientific evidence in support of the supernatural religious claims, faith would not be the main requirement.”
- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 3

“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71), Historian

Where are you from and what was the majority religion?

[ Edited: 28 June 2014 15:30 by Veronica95]
 
Huxley4ever
 
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Huxley4ever
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28 June 2014 00:54
 
Veronica95 - 27 June 2014 02:53 PM

Hi Huxley4ever, I agree with you that many of the religious faithful will continue to ignore or omit valid evidence as they always have, however, that is not an excuse to be lazy about the facts and evidence for everybody else. Two wrongs do not make a right. The facts and credible evidence should matter, regardless of the Nancy naysayers and critics.

Again, Religion, for some, is the most important thing in their lives and we really need to impress upon them that if their religion is so important to them, then, accuracy, honesty, credible evidence and whether or not their god or savior existed should be equally important. It matters.

I mean, how silly to believe in things that are believed to be from god that have no basis in reality and are easily debunked. This is why I feel so strongly about the mythicist position; faith and euphoria do not trump credible evidence that actually exists.

We need to emphasize that if their religion is so important to them then, accuracy should matter greatly.

Where are you from and what was the majority religion?

“If there were valid scientific evidence in support of the supernatural religious claims, faith would not be the main requirement.”
- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 3

“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71), Historian

Hi veronica,

I am from the former yugoslavia, and when i grew up there was no official state religion.  Religion was not banned, but certenly frowned upon.  You could not be religious snd get promoted.  The country promoted athiesm.  So i am an athiest.

 
 
Veronica95
 
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Veronica95
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28 June 2014 15:41
 

Yugoslavia, that’s sounds intense to me. I can’t imagine having atheism forced upon me. It seems like it’s the complete opposite here in the USA where religion is not necessarily forced upon you but, it’s more subtle and people here seem religious by default simply due to following the same religion as our parents etc. It becomes very difficult to get out of when ones entire family and friends are religious and also prejudice against atheism. Far too many in the US have some war against secularism. I was an evangelical for a couple decades and it was very difficult to get out of as even to this very day I am quite isolated because of it.

Study: Atheists Most Discriminated Minority
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=391

Are you ok with your atheism or do you resent it in some way?

I now consider myself an atheist/freethinker/mythicist, but I also agree with Dr. Sam Harris and his views on atheism, that: “atheism, I would argue, is not a thing. It is not a philosophy, just as “non-racism” is not one.” Atheism has no substance.

That’s where mythicism comes in. The mythicist position offers the very best, most reasonable narrative and has substance behind it as well as credible evidence that actually exists. I just wish more atheists would actually study the subject to understand that fact. Doing away with religion completely, as some atheists hope for, is just not reality. Mythicism offers a far more balanced perspective whereby we understand the origins of religious concepts stemming from natural phenomena ie the sun, moon, stars, constellations etc. It’s an Occam’s razor explanation that fits the evidence as well as reality.

The Mythicist Position:

“Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not “real people” but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called “astrotheology.”

As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures.”

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 12

The Mythicist Position and Astrotheology

“One of the major planks of mythicism is recognizing the ancient astrotheology and nature worship engaged in by the cultures of antiquity whose religions and myths contributed to the formation of the Bible-based, Abrahamic faiths such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam in particular, but other religions as well. This astrotheology can be summed up in a nutshell as the reverence for and personification of the sun, moon, earth, planets, stars and constellations, as well as other celestial bodies and natural phenomena. The study of mythicism, astrotheology and archaeoastronomy reveals a very ancient body of knowledge that is both highly fascinating and far too overlooked in today’s society.”

SNIP

The Value of Mythicism

“Mythicism has much to offer to those who find it difficult to believe in the gospel story as “history” but who wish to know the deeper meaning behind the story. Indeed, the mythicist position importantly serves as a bridge between theism and atheism, as it does not seek to discount or denigrate the long and exalted history of thought concerning religion and mythology, dating back many thousands of years, as manifested in the religious and spiritual practices of man beginning millennia ago and continuing since then. The pinnacle of mythicist cultures-more specifically those based on astrotheology-can be seen in the massive and mysterious civilization of Egypt, for example. Rather than being ignored and dismissed, such wondrous creations should be explored and treasured as unique and glorious contributions to the overall human accomplishment.”

- What is a Mythicist? | The Mythicist Position | Mythicism
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

Astrotheology of the Ancients
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/astrotheology.html

Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2160

Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/washington-jefferson-mythicists.html

Why I am A Mythicist
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4344

The Mythicist Position video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63BNKhGAVRQ

“At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories… Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later.”

- Dr. Edwin Krupp, astronomer and director at Griffith Park Observatory in Los Angeles

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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05 July 2014 07:24
 
Veronica95 - 05 June 2014 12:51 PM

Hi Poldano,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Poldano: “My point in terms of whether or not some religious figures are mythical is that it doesn’t matter.”

In my view, I think it’s imperative that it matters. That’s a very pivital point to emphasize. Religion, for some, is the most important thing in their lives and we really need to impress upon them that if their religion is so important to them, then, accuracy, honesty, credible evidence and whether or not their god or savior existed should be equally important. It matters.

I mean, how silly to believe in things that are believed to be from god that have no basis in reality and are easily debunked. This is why I feel so strongly about the mythicist position; faith and euphoria do not trump credible evidence that actually exists.

We need to emphasize that if their religion is so important to them then, accuracy should matter greatly.

Poldano: “Far more important in terms of mundane concern are the interpretations that self-described adherents put on the figures and their associated documents and traditions in support of their own political and economic interests.”

This is secondary to me since their interpretations as well as political and economic agendas are easily debunked with valid primary sources and scholar commentary on them.

It should probably start with an academia shake-up:

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3110

Acharya’s Work Complements Sam Harris’s Philosophy
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3588

Veronica, it sounds to me like you are advocating a kind of inquisition against some types of religious thought. This has been tried before, and it doesn’t really work. It is an approach that is in general antithetical to free thought and freedom of expression. It does not appear to me to be a good description of dialectical engagement among those with differing opinions, to determine to what extent each of the various opinions is justified.

One of the tenets of my position is that all opinions are, to some extent, mythical. This includes scientific theories. Even in the form of pure mathematics, as abstracted from naive realism as one can get, there is some difference between what the theory predicts as being true and what actually is true, in my opinion. Whether or not a person regards a scientific theory as literally true or simply a useful myth that is accurate enough for the current purposes is irrelevant, if the person is able to use that theory impeccably. I apply that same criteria to opinions that are commonly considered to be religious in subject matter.

While I oppose the promulgation of empirically unsubstantiated dogma as literal truth that must be believed, I believe that all such dogma can, and should be, exposed by rational dialectic means. If a rational response to dogma does not prevail, then it is simply necessary to wait and endure. Humans in general are not as adept at rationality as they are at following dogma, but if a dogma really is at odds with a rational understanding of the same subject matter, then humans will eventually drop that dogma. This is a theme that repeats throughout history, with different subject matter.

 
 
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