‹ First  < 7 8 9 10 11 > 
 
   
 

A Thought Experiment…

 
SaulOhio
 
Avatar
 
 
SaulOhio
Total Posts:  895
Joined  07-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 06:51
 
[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“SaulOhio”]How many people would WANT to live as subsistence farmers? WHY????

You don’t get it, do you? In your universe, it’s not about what they want, it’s about what you think they should want. That’s what you don’t understand. That’s why you feel so alone here.

How about a show of hands here. Who wants to live as a subsistence farmer, doing backbreaking labor for 16 hours a day, living at the mercy of the elements and the next crop failure? And who would prefer to work in an air conditioned place of business, doing nothing more strenuous than pushing buttons and walking from one room to another, working 8 hours a day, or even less, having the rest of that free time for recreation and creative liesure?

Let me give you a small hint: With nine billion to feed (and needing a place to live), real estate will become so expensive that anyone who wants to be a subsistence farmer will need to be as rich as Bill Gates. Or something like that. You think everybody wants the same level of abstraction that you do. You have the mentality of a greeting card salesman.

No, you have the mentality of a religious dogmatist. As I said, agricultural technology is improving so much that we will be able to feed those 9 billion on the same, maybe even less, farmland than we use now, leaving the rest as wilderness or parkland for our esthetic enjoyment and recreation. There will be more than plenty of land available for the few misfits like you who want to push ploughs through the soil with your bare hands.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
Avatar
 
 
Traces Elk
Total Posts:  5591
Joined  27-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 06:59
 

[quote author=“SaulOhio”]How about a show of hands here. Who wants to live as a subsistence farmer, doing backbreaking labor for 16 hours a day, living at the mercy of the elements and the next crop failure? And who would prefer to work in an air conditioned place of business, doing nothing more strenuous than pushing buttons and walking from one room to another, working 8 hours a day, or even less, having the rest of that free time for recreation and creative liesure?

A show of hands. Right. The tyranny of the majority. You fuçkwit. You don’t believe in freedom from unchosen obligations; you believe in the tyranny of the majority. If you do, you may discover that the majority thinks in a different way from you. By the way, please learn how to write the word “leisure”. As in “the leisure class”. That’s us, by the way, Saul. Assholes with the freedom to gab about economic and philosophical abstractions.

 
 
SaulOhio
 
Avatar
 
 
SaulOhio
Total Posts:  895
Joined  07-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 07:34
 

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]
A show of hands. Right. The tyranny of the majority.

I wasn’t calling for a vote. More like a poll.  I was just challenging your assertion that I was in the minority preferring life in an industrialized civilization over subsistence farming.

 
 
SaulOhio
 
Avatar
 
 
SaulOhio
Total Posts:  895
Joined  07-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 07:54
 

PS: Salt Creek: Don’t get your panties all bunched up. Did I hit some sensitive nerve with you, actually identifying the psychological motive for your beliefs correctly? Whats the need for the swearing?

 
 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 08:30
 

[quote author=“eucaryote”] Ouch! was that an engineer slam? Are you paranoid that engineers have it in for you?

 
[quote author=“Nhoj Morley”]
Just a little one. In my various occupations as a tech, I have worked with many engineers both briefly and long term (Visteon, mostly). For the most part, they are very talented, well educated and thoughtful. It all seems to come at a price, though.
A modest sense of superiority, a frustration with “mundanes” and a dark, confined imagination.

Four to six months later, my idea becomes part of the project as if it just leached through the walls.

That’s a very different world than the one I work in. I do HVAC and work in the building industry. I do energy work. I have an academic background in biology.

[quote author=“Nhoj Morley”]
It can’t be easy though, with unsubstantiated true claims around every corner, the rest of us floating around like hot air balloons and nobody appreciating the heavy burden of the material world they must carry around in their cortex.

Material and physical world. Being into energy, especially these days, not a day goes by that I don’t find myself explaining to someone that water does not run uphill spontaneously. It’s amazing how many people, like Saul, believe that technology will buy them a free lunch.

[quote author=“Nhoj Morley”]Don’t get me wrong, there are worse personality disorders. But no worse drivers.

Touche’

[quote author=“Nhoj Morley”]I’ll tackle the rest of your interesting post after work tonight.

Please do. I think that the topic is pursuant to your original post. I apologize for taking part in hijacking the thread. It’s just hard not to take the opportunity to laugh at some of what Saul comes up with.

Salt Creek:
Nhoj passes through this forum like a breath of fresh air, amid all this industrial noise. Just a slight lessening of the stench of benzene in my nostrils, before diffusion takes over.

Thanks, I think.

Salty probably just slipped, I’m sure he didn’t intend to compliment you. He just wanted to expressed his jaundiced view of the rest of us, a view that’s often accurate and even funny.

 
 
SaulOhio
 
Avatar
 
 
SaulOhio
Total Posts:  895
Joined  07-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 08:56
 

[quote author=“eucaryote”]It’s amazing how many people, like Saul, believe that technology will buy them a free lunch.

heh. How many misconceptions about my beliefs can be expressed on this forum in one day? Hundreds?

I am a firm believer in what Heinlein called TANSTAAFL. There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

 
 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 08:56
 

[quote author=“M is for Malapert”][quote author=“homunculus”][quote author=“eucaryote”]. . .

I took this from Shermer’s Book. He in turn took it from Brandens. . . .

Eucaryote, your descriptions of Shermer’s words ring true to my memory of what I’ve read,

I looked up Shermer’s piece and was surprised to find that he read everything Ayn Rand wrote, admired her greatly, agrees with almost everything she says, and was hugely influenced by her.

I always had some suspicions about Shermer but that really sent up the red flag.  I won’t be shocked if Shermer renounces skepticism to great fanfare one day.

I think that you are being a little unfair to Shermer. His big problem with Rand was what we see in Saul. Absolute moral values. Shermer notes that science is always in collision with absolutes and draws conclusions only on a tentative basis. Shermer thinks about objectivism and extreme libertarianism, much as well all do. The basic ideas are easy to accept to a point. Where they go wrong is when they are extrapolated to extreme absolutes the Rand and Saul do.

I have been skeptical of Shermer as well. More because he admits to being a full blown jesus freak at one time.  He admits to it though, and I have met some great former religious fanatics in this forum, like Noggin, or Mia or made maka who have given me new respect for apostates. So I’ll cut him some slack. I like his articles in SciAm.

 
 
Traces Elk
 
Avatar
 
 
Traces Elk
Total Posts:  5591
Joined  27-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 09:01
 

Salty probably just slipped

No. I love everybody. That just means that no individual gets very much at one time.

Gotta go away for a day or two. Back with that jaundiced view after the weekend.

 
 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 09:05
 

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]

Salty probably just slipped

No. I love everybody. That just means that no individual gets very much at one time.

Gotta go away for a day or two. Back with that jaundiced view after the weekend.

We love you too Salty. You just go down best with water. :wink:

 
 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 09:08
 

[quote author=“SaulOhio”][quote author=“eucaryote”]It’s amazing how many people, like Saul, believe that technology will buy them a free lunch.

heh. How many misconceptions about my beliefs can be expressed on this forum in one day? Hundreds?

I am a firm believer in what Heinlein called TANSTAAFL. There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Gee, Saul, where could I have gotten that idea about you? :?:

 
 
SaulOhio
 
Avatar
 
 
SaulOhio
Total Posts:  895
Joined  07-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 09:16
 

Absolutes in science:

The laws of thermodynamics: If someone asks you for financing for a perpetual motion machine they claim to have invented, you can be absolutely sure you shouldn’t part with any cash for it.

The speed of light in a vacuum.

Deep time: The precise age of the Earth may not be known, but we can be absolutely sure its vast, measured in billions of years.

Other planets are made of rock, metal and gasses, the same materials as the Earth, they are not Gods or other spirits.

Living organisms are made of a combination of the same kinds of elements as inanimate matter. They are not a special kind of matter different from inanimate objects.

Water is composed of two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen.

Helium has an atomic number of 2, which means that every atom of helium has two protons.

Saturn has rings and numerous moons.

Anyone care to mention any more?

Popper’s idea of falsifiability of scientific theories is an excellent test for the validity of scientific theories, but the idea that there are no absolutes, that we can’t prove anything true, only disprove it, is nonsense.

 
 
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  15808
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 10:27
 

[quote author=“eucaryote”][quote author=“Salt Creek”]

Salty probably just slipped

No. I love everybody. That just means that no individual gets very much at one time.

Gotta go away for a day or two. Back with that jaundiced view after the weekend.

We love you too Salty. You just go down best with water. :wink:

No, lime and tequila.

 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 11:13
 

[quote author=“SaulOhio”]Absolutes in science

Saul,

You’re just being obstinate. You know what I mean. Science by definition is always ready to change based on new evidence or old evidence in a new perspective, like newtonian mechanics and quantum mechanics.

Now give us a list of moral absolutes that can be demostrated to be true absolutes on which all agree by virtue of physical evidence and/or mathematical proof.

[ Edited: 15 June 2007 13:28 by ]
 
 
M is for Malapert
 
Avatar
 
 
M is for Malapert
Total Posts:  1606
Joined  23-09-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 12:47
 

[quote author=“eucaryote”]
I have been skeptical of Shermer as well. More because he admits to being a full blown jesus freak at one time.

Well, that’s part of the problem too.  I am a little uneasy about people who have been, historically, all over the map.  Something in me prefers to see a gradual dawning of the light.

[quote author=“eucaryote”] He admits to it though, and I have met some great former religious fanatics in this forum, like Noggin, or Mia or made maka who have given me new respect for apostates. So I’ll cut him some slack. I like his articles in SciAm.

The difference between Noggin and Mia - I only call myself an apostate to annoy Frank; I lost my belief in God about the same time that I realized there was no Santa Claus either - is that Shermer would have a motive to switch.  He’d get a lot of public love and $$$ if he did.

I’ll cut him some slack too.  It’s just like I said: I wouldn’t be shocked to see him take up yet another POV either. 

P.S. You do realize that made_maka is Malapert, yes?  Right.  You were just teasin’.

 
 
eucaryote
 
Avatar
 
 
eucaryote
Total Posts:  3497
Joined  20-08-2006
 
 
 
15 June 2007 13:22
 

[quote author=“M is for Malapert”]
The difference between Noggin and Mia - I only call myself an apostate to annoy Frank; I lost my belief in God about the same time that I realized there was no Santa Claus either - is that Shermer would have a motive to switch.  He’d get a lot of public love and $$$ if he did.

I’ll cut him some slack too.  It’s just like I said: I wouldn’t be shocked to see him take up yet another POV either.

You mean Shermer would have incentive to switch back to religion from being a skeptic? I suppose, he’d have to give up his gig at SciAm.

[quote author=“M is for Malapert”]P.S. You do realize that made_maka is Malapert, yes?  Right.  You were just teasin’.

No, I didn’t know that. You mean that person aka a black and white carrion eating bird?! Changing your name again?
Ok, I realize that your not truly apostatic. You’re just so damn bright about all this religious stuff I thought I’d include you in my list of people, who were formerly religious, that I’ve come to admire.
smile

 
 
‹ First  < 7 8 9 10 11 >