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The Black Hole

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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30 September 2014 18:03
 
bbearren - 30 September 2014 02:03 PM
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 09:09 AM
bbearren - 30 September 2014 07:58 AM
jb8989 - 29 September 2014 11:19 PM

Do you mind telling me what you didn’t prefer about mine?

Why is it that you prefer yours over mine?  Why are you so insistent that I agree with your terminology?

I don’t and I’m not. I was simply wondering where I went wrong in reframing what you said to me? Sometimes I’m good at reframing.

But you do and your are.  Although I’m not an attorney, my wife retired as an investigator for the office of the public defender in the capital crimes division, known internally as “D Team”.  One of her duties was to prep witnesses for trial.  I’m acquainted with a number of lawyers, and one of my best friends is a criminal defense attorney.  The technique you’re attempting to employ is ancient, and it is not unknown to me.

It is my preference not to be reframed.

jb8989 - 30 September 2014 09:09 AM

Is there something you don’t like about me calling you logical, polite, uncomplicated and humble; without emotions, except the emotions pride and jealousy because you perceive them as irrational or unreasonable? Or maybe it’s the second part you’re uncomfortable with, where you claim to be absent insecurity, immaturity, and any persona and therefore cannot be insulted, offended or ridiculed? Or third; akin to “a pebble rolling down a hill,” interested in how stuff works by observation but often find others’ interpretation of your observations convoluted, yet you won’t describe yourself as an astute observer? After all I’m trying my best to use your language.

You left out “to my advantage” at the end of your last sentence, but the implication is a bright blinking neon sign.

In clinical social work, reframing was a tool used to get to know someone better. I’m trying break down our communicative disconnect, not imply anything mean or otherwise subversive. Using my own words helps me remember people and things. All I know about you so far is shit I don’t care to remember such as the fact that we haven’t agreed on one thing since you’re time here. And I’m trying to figure out if it’s a me thing, as you implied in post 18?

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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30 September 2014 18:06
 
Gregoryhhh - 30 September 2014 02:47 PM
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 01:37 PM
Gregoryhhh - 30 September 2014 01:10 PM

Well, i find myself agreeing with bbearren in regards to jealousy and insults.

I have been in sales 45 years and commonly was, but not always number one in sales. I never felt jealous or envious of someone else having better sales results than me (than i?). I never attached someone having better results as them being better than me - the results were better, that’s all - hey congratulations! When I heard of successes or good things happening for others, i was always - “way to go!” rather than - fuck that lucky bastard, it shoulda woulda coulda been me. There are people who dont have jealousy in their lives.

In regards to Insults, i am reminded of the narrator in “Notes From the Underground” (Dostoevsky) when his antagonist said (paraphrased in different words), how can I a human, be insulted by you, an ant? You cannot insult me. Another example is if someone were to offer an insult to me as they say i am a whore’s bastard - it is neither insulting to me or my Mom - the person offering this obviously doesn’t know my Mother, (A Polish Catholic “saint”.) I never heard anyone in my life say anything negative about my Mom, 7 kids in 8 years, the old time submissive to her dominating drunk of a husband.Anyone who offers such an insult is at the least ignorant, perhaps retarded, but the offered insult says more about the person doing the insulting, and nothing relevant about the intended insultee. And unlike my oldest sister who was conceived out of wedlock i was not a bastard - The person may in addition to being ignorant or retarded could just be suffering from delusions. I am not taking any of my time to engage in one such as this. (i dont do well with paranoid and non paranoid schizophrenics either)
gregory

Insults and jealousy should probably be perceived as irrational. But there’s a ton of grey area between (1) perceiving insults as irrational, and (2) perceiving insults as irrational AND simultaneously the insulator as retarded, delusional, or schizophrenic. That’s extreme, possibly a projection. Regardless, being able to cope with or having a certain level of imperviousness to negative emotions - whether triggered through insult or otherwise - is a good thing IMO so long as in doing so you don’t delude yourself into the idea that you are somehow above others or impervious to often important feelings of sadness, grief and struggle. There’s growth in certain “negative” emotions, as well as empathizing with the distressed, if you take the time to learn how to cope and self-sooth emotional adversity. Otherwise you numb it out and it surfaces in some other form, maybe sleeplessness, irritability, hair loss, or just good ole fashioned stupidity and dickishness.

Ok, jb8989, allow me to clarify - first of all, i do not, and have been told by others that i do not, and as results of psychological testings show, i do not live my life with the delusion that i am in any way “above others” nor am i “impervious to negative emotions”. ( I have cried for dead birds who have expired after flying into windows.)The fact does though remain that many people who insult others are clearly ignorant, and to define them as ignorant is neither a projection nor an insult, it oft times is a clear and present fact that what was said was ignorant - this does not mean i am saying they are permanently and irrevocably ignorant, but they are certainly ignorant about my Mother being a whore and me being a bastard. That’s just plain ignorant. And In regards to “retarded” well, the thinking that comes up with that kind of insult is not what i would call “advanced” thinking -  In the old days of automotive tune-ups it’s before top dead center, it’s retarded, not advanced. ( my “schizophrenic” reference was just me sharing that in addition to ignorant, or retarded, or delusional people, i also try to avoid debating with schizophrenics)

Understood and agreed. I call people retarded all the time. Sometimes it doesn’t mean much at all, others it means that Dennis Campbell is functionally retarded because he can’t post in anything other than list form.

[ Edited: 30 September 2014 19:57 by Jb8989]
 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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30 September 2014 18:15
 
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 04:06 PM
Gregoryhhh - 30 September 2014 02:47 PM
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 01:37 PM
Gregoryhhh - 30 September 2014 01:10 PM

Understood and agreed. I call people retarded all the time. Sometimes it doesn’t mean much at all, other’s it means that Dennis Campbell is functionally retarded because he can’t post in anything other than list form.

Sorry Dennis, but that was funny. ( i have no idea of its truth)

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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30 September 2014 21:33
 
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 04:03 PM

In clinical social work, reframing was a tool used to get to know someone better. I’m trying break down our communicative disconnect, not imply anything mean or otherwise subversive. Using my own words helps me remember people and things. All I know about you so far is shit I don’t care to remember such as the fact that we haven’t agreed on one thing since you’re time here. And I’m trying to figure out if it’s a me thing, as you implied in post 18?

Evidently, having convinced yourself that you are interacting with some persona, rather than simply taking me at face (post) value, is getting in your way.  I haven’t gone back through the posts and compiled a list, but if memory serves, many of our disagreements have been over who or what I am.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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30 September 2014 21:43
 
bbearren - 30 September 2014 07:33 PM
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 04:03 PM

In clinical social work, reframing was a tool used to get to know someone better. I’m trying break down our communicative disconnect, not imply anything mean or otherwise subversive. Using my own words helps me remember people and things. All I know about you so far is shit I don’t care to remember such as the fact that we haven’t agreed on one thing since you’re time here. And I’m trying to figure out if it’s a me thing, as you implied in post 18?

Evidently, having convinced yourself that you are interacting with some persona, rather than simply taking me at face (post) value, is getting in your way.  I haven’t gone back through the posts and compiled a list, but if memory serves, many of our disagreements have been over who or what I am.

I’ll agree that I think you’re persona is too inconsistent to be reasonable, mainly because I don’t think that you’re open to critical analysis with what you call observations without interpretation. But that doesn’t have to define this interaction where I’m genuinely interested in understanding you at “face value.” After all this thread is about you. So I understand your apprehension. Regardless, here we are! Do you really feel as though you don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue, digital or face-to-face? I do. It’s the best way I know how to get to the essence of things.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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30 September 2014 22:13
 
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 07:43 PM

I’ll agree that I think you’re persona is too inconsistent to be reasonable, mainly because I don’t think that you’re open to critical analysis with what you call observations without interpretation. But that doesn’t have to define this interaction where I’m genuinely interested in understanding you at “face value.” After all this thread is about you. So I understand your apprehension. Regardless, here we are! Do you really feel as though you don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue, digital or face-to-face? I do. It’s the best way I know how to get to the essence of things.

I think you are in the black hole, joby.  He does not agree that he interprets. He calls them observations, but for some reason “interpretation” is a boundary he does not feel he should cross.  Some people can’t say “I’m sorry” or “I’m wrong.”  bb can’t say “I interpret.”

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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01 October 2014 00:00
 
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 07:43 PM

I’ll agree that I think you’re persona is too inconsistent to be reasonable, mainly because I don’t think that you’re open to critical analysis with what you call observations without interpretation. But that doesn’t have to define this interaction where I’m genuinely interested in understanding you at “face value.” After all this thread is about you. So I understand your apprehension. Regardless, here we are! Do you really feel as though you don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue, digital or face-to-face? I do. It’s the best way I know how to get to the essence of things.

There is no persona.  Until you can wedge your way past that, I don’t see a lot of understanding coming through.  I wouldn’t say I’m apprehensive, it’s just that I’ve had any number of exchanges where I’ve been “reframed” and then asked to defend a position that isn’t mine in the first place.

Yes, I really feel that I don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue.  For me, the best way to get to the essence of things is to listen to/read the words being used.  I’m not trying to get past what someone is saying/writing in search of some deeper meaning.  If someone wants me to know something deep, they’ll just have to tell me straight up; I don’t do any digging.

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” ― Robert McCloskey

I don’t feel the need to go there.  I was a front line supervisor for about 25 years.  Whenever I gave an employee a task that was not routine, I would tell them what I wanted them to do, then have them tell me what I said.  That proved to be extremely useful quite a number of times.

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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01 October 2014 02:23
 

um, EN, you are so funny
gregory

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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01 October 2014 12:55
 
bbearren - 30 September 2014 10:00 PM
jb8989 - 30 September 2014 07:43 PM

I’ll agree that I think you’re persona is too inconsistent to be reasonable, mainly because I don’t think that you’re open to critical analysis with what you call observations without interpretation. But that doesn’t have to define this interaction where I’m genuinely interested in understanding you at “face value.” After all this thread is about you. So I understand your apprehension. Regardless, here we are! Do you really feel as though you don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue, digital or face-to-face? I do. It’s the best way I know how to get to the essence of things.

There is no persona.  Until you can wedge your way past that, I don’t see a lot of understanding coming through.  I wouldn’t say I’m apprehensive, it’s just that I’ve had any number of exchanges where I’ve been “reframed” and then asked to defend a position that isn’t mine in the first place.

Yes, I really feel that I don’t make a ton of interpretations in normal dialogue.  For me, the best way to get to the essence of things is to listen to/read the words being used.  I’m not trying to get past what someone is saying/writing in search of some deeper meaning.  If someone wants me to know something deep, they’ll just have to tell me straight up; I don’t do any digging.

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” ― Robert McCloskey

I don’t feel the need to go there.  I was a front line supervisor for about 25 years.  Whenever I gave an employee a task that was not routine, I would tell them what I wanted them to do, then have them tell me what I said.  That proved to be extremely useful quite a number of times.

You’re right; you don’t seem apprehensive.

In contract law we call what you call “getting to the essence of things” an evaluation of express words (i.e. stick to the four corners of the contract and the language within). A problem generally arises between the two separate contracting parties when some of those words are sufficiently ambiguous, and therefore one party agreed to the terms of the contract under one definition of the language and the other party agreed to the terms using another definition of the language. In that situation, interpretation is a must. Now life is indeed not contract law, but hell if ambiguity isn’t prevalent in our society, often allowing people to use it to their advantage. It’s gotten to the point in my life where I no longer blindly agree to rhetorical questions. Have you ever decided to stop and listen to how many rhetorical questions people ask you? I have and it was a lot! I’ve started to actually stop, process and answer them because I slowly began to realize that general informal rhetorical questions are simply a way for people to get you on whatever side of the argument they are on without any analysis or curiousness.

In any event, written or spoken words come from a source or authority. In what instances will you decide to dismiss words?

[ Edited: 01 October 2014 13:03 by Jb8989]
 
 
Mike78
 
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01 October 2014 13:58
 

Everyone interprets.  Taking things at “face value” is an interpretation.  This owl cannot rotate its head enough to see where its shit is coming from.

 
bbearren
 
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02 October 2014 08:21
 
jb8989 - 01 October 2014 10:55 AM

In any event, written or spoken words come from a source or authority. In what instances will you decide to dismiss words?

bbearren - 30 September 2014 02:03 PM

It is my preference not to be reframed.

 
 
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02 October 2014 08:22
 
Mike78 - 01 October 2014 11:58 AM

Everyone interprets.  Taking things at “face value” is an interpretation.  This owl cannot rotate its head enough to see where its shit is coming from.

...

 
 
Jb8989
 
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02 October 2014 11:03
 
bbearren - 02 October 2014 06:21 AM
jb8989 - 01 October 2014 10:55 AM

In any event, written or spoken words come from a source or authority. In what instances will you decide to dismiss words?

bbearren - 30 September 2014 02:03 PM

It is my preference not to be reframed.

In that instance I wasn’t. Do you disagree that written or spoken words come from a person or group or people; a source? I can’t imagine that you do. So What I’m wondering is, how do you judge which words to take at face value and which to dismiss? Surely a man yelling at you exclaiming that two-headed goblins are chasing him shouldn’t be believed “at face value,” right?

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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02 October 2014 11:49
 

uh, we dont have to agree about a definition of a word, but would it not be fitting to agree to a definition of a word before we all go off in different directions and have a cacophony rather than a symphony? fog instead of clarity - and degrade to talking about the weather or gasp, even a more low form of communication - personal insults?
gregory

 
 
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02 October 2014 16:40
 
jb8989 - 02 October 2014 09:03 AM

What I’m wondering is, how do you judge which words to take at face value and which to dismiss?

It is my preference not to be reframed; nor do I care to be framed.

 
 
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