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Why Is It Important To Convince Others That There Is No God?

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
Total Posts:  7176
Joined  15-05-2009
 
 
 
29 December 2014 14:50
 
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 08:56 AM
gsmonks - 29 December 2014 05:38 AM

Anyway, there’s no point trying to have a real conversation with a Godder. It’s like trying to nail a fart to the wall. They’ll just go into denial mode, and begin tap-dancing and obfuscating.

They have to tap dance gsmonks. But it is so much more serious than dancing or farting (or even farting whilst dancing). It’s a matter of life and death to them, and and not only life and death but losing their salvation. It’s also about losing all your friends, your nights out doing the doings of the church, the potlucks, the saturday morning prayer breakfasts, the tuesday night fellowship, the wednesday mid week church service, the friday night youth group and the 3 sunday services along with the unscheduled times with other members – when I saw there was no Abramic God, I lost the things I just listed. I gave up the Abramic God and lost my life – well the life I was living vanished. That is another reason it’s so hard for the godders to hear, for though they have ears, they do not hear – they can’t - unless they are willing to lose the life they are living.
gregory

I know well what you’re talking about.  It’s been years since I lost my faith, and I’m still working on the new life.  Depends on the community as to how much else is available.  Personally, I made a point to invite my Christian friends for non-religious social events, like hiking, dinner, movies, concerts.  So I get to see them regularly, but not at Bible study or church.  I still long for local friends who are more on my wavelength, but I’m not feeling as bereft as I did at the start.

 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
Total Posts:  2008
Joined  31-08-2014
 
 
 
29 December 2014 15:14
 
Hannah2 - 29 December 2014 01:50 PM
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 08:56 AM
gsmonks - 29 December 2014 05:38 AM

Anyway, there’s no point trying to have a real conversation with a Godder. It’s like trying to nail a fart to the wall. They’ll just go into denial mode, and begin tap-dancing and obfuscating.

They have to tap dance gsmonks. But it is so much more serious than dancing or farting (or even farting whilst dancing). It’s a matter of life and death to them, and and not only life and death but losing their salvation. It’s also about losing all your friends, your nights out doing the doings of the church, the potlucks, the saturday morning prayer breakfasts, the tuesday night fellowship, the wednesday mid week church service, the friday night youth group and the 3 sunday services along with the unscheduled times with other members – when I saw there was no Abramic God, I lost the things I just listed. I gave up the Abramic God and lost my life – well the life I was living vanished. That is another reason it’s so hard for the godders to hear, for though they have ears, they do not hear – they can’t - unless they are willing to lose the life they are living.
gregory

I know well what you’re talking about.  It’s been years since I lost my faith, and I’m still working on the new life.  Depends on the community as to how much else is available.  Personally, I made a point to invite my Christian friends for non-religious social events, like hiking, dinner, movies, concerts.  So I get to see them regularly, but not at Bible study or church.  I still long for local friends who are more on my wavelength, but I’m not feeling as bereft as I did at the start.

geeze i’d at least like to find a poker game

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
Total Posts:  7176
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30 December 2014 00:04
 
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 02:14 PM
Hannah2 - 29 December 2014 01:50 PM
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 08:56 AM
gsmonks - 29 December 2014 05:38 AM

Anyway, there’s no point trying to have a real conversation with a Godder. It’s like trying to nail a fart to the wall. They’ll just go into denial mode, and begin tap-dancing and obfuscating.

They have to tap dance gsmonks. But it is so much more serious than dancing or farting (or even farting whilst dancing). It’s a matter of life and death to them, and and not only life and death but losing their salvation. It’s also about losing all your friends, your nights out doing the doings of the church, the potlucks, the saturday morning prayer breakfasts, the tuesday night fellowship, the wednesday mid week church service, the friday night youth group and the 3 sunday services along with the unscheduled times with other members – when I saw there was no Abramic God, I lost the things I just listed. I gave up the Abramic God and lost my life – well the life I was living vanished. That is another reason it’s so hard for the godders to hear, for though they have ears, they do not hear – they can’t - unless they are willing to lose the life they are living.
gregory

I know well what you’re talking about.  It’s been years since I lost my faith, and I’m still working on the new life.  Depends on the community as to how much else is available.  Personally, I made a point to invite my Christian friends for non-religious social events, like hiking, dinner, movies, concerts.  So I get to see them regularly, but not at Bible study or church.  I still long for local friends who are more on my wavelength, but I’m not feeling as bereft as I did at the start.

geeze i’d at least like to find a poker game

Cards is a no go among your church friends?

 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
Total Posts:  2008
Joined  31-08-2014
 
 
 
30 December 2014 01:26
 
Hannah2 - 29 December 2014 11:04 PM
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 02:14 PM
Hannah2 - 29 December 2014 01:50 PM
Gregoryhhh - 29 December 2014 08:56 AM
gsmonks - 29 December 2014 05:38 AM

Anyway, there’s no point trying to have a real conversation with a Godder. It’s like trying to nail a fart to the wall. They’ll just go into denial mode, and begin tap-dancing and obfuscating.

They have to tap dance gsmonks. But it is so much more serious than dancing or farting (or even farting whilst dancing). It’s a matter of life and death to them, and and not only life and death but losing their salvation. It’s also about losing all your friends, your nights out doing the doings of the church, the potlucks, the saturday morning prayer breakfasts, the tuesday night fellowship, the wednesday mid week church service, the friday night youth group and the 3 sunday services along with the unscheduled times with other members – when I saw there was no Abramic God, I lost the things I just listed. I gave up the Abramic God and lost my life – well the life I was living vanished. That is another reason it’s so hard for the godders to hear, for though they have ears, they do not hear – they can’t - unless they are willing to lose the life they are living.
gregory

I know well what you’re talking about.  It’s been years since I lost my faith, and I’m still working on the new life.  Depends on the community as to how much else is available.  Personally, I made a point to invite my Christian friends for non-religious social events, like hiking, dinner, movies, concerts.  So I get to see them regularly, but not at Bible study or church.  I still long for local friends who are more on my wavelength, but I’m not feeling as bereft as I did at the start.

geeze i’d at least like to find a poker game

Cards is a no go among your church friends?

well, i have no church yet, or church friends, but i am aiming to run into one or two here and there.Though anybody who is in direct need of a poker game can always go to Vegas.(gawd i luv las vegas.)
gregory

 
 
James Clovispoint
 
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James Clovispoint
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30 December 2014 23:12
 

Universalism by definition is the theological doctrine that all men will finally be saved or brought back to holiness and God (whatever they do).

It’s cute and at least has the façade of an unconditional religion, but how then does it work? Whatever the answer, it remains a religion and has its own dogmas and tenets based on a Theology.
But, how does religion know anything about such an elusive creature when it cannot (and never has) communicate with Him/Her/It?

Universalism only presents a nicer version of the same unknown deity. At least scriptural religions base their illusions of a god on a form of uncorroborated texts, whereas Universalism bases their god on pure delusions. It only cherry picks the attributes it wants its god to have; it equates to a happy hippy Jesus camp.

A Universalist Unitarian finally got fed up with my responses to his dogma one day and demanded, “Do you know what’s going to happen when you stand in judgment before God?”
I responded, “She is going to have some big explaining to do.”
He then gave up.

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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31 December 2014 00:17
 

In my experience Unitarian Universalism is more open than that. No theism required—all about the community—lots of secular humanists. It’s definitely a good place to find that community aspect of life among the humans that Gregoryhhh says he’s after. I found it hard to take the commitment to the lack of any kind of judgment (other than the perspective of liberal, socially service-minded ideology ... had no problem with that though). Generally they were good about finding humor in their own wishy-washiness, which I found very endearing (didn’t take themselves too seriously by any means), but I didn’t find much ideological purchase for genuine open-mindedness (which must include being open to rejecting avenues of inquiry that reason and evidence say should be rejected, not being open to everything for the sake of being open) ... didn’t work so well for me, though I really liked a lot of the people in the local UU community.

 
 
James Clovispoint
 
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James Clovispoint
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31 December 2014 01:18
 

Beyond the apparent wishy-washiness there is a structure, otherwise their meetings are only garden parties of the Mutual Admiration Society.

They have and must have a hierarchy of tenets and of leaders who base their “religion” on something. The wishy-washiness comes from the fact that they seldom if ever dare expose their dogma. I have to admit that they are welcoming and apparently open-minded but there is a foundation that is seldom brought up as if by doing so would be like sticking their necks out to get it chopped off.

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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31 December 2014 01:40
 
James Clovispoint - 31 December 2014 12:18 AM

Beyond the apparent wishy-washiness there is a structure, otherwise their meetings are only garden parties of the Mutual Admiration Society.

That’s more or less what I was describing ... yeah.

 

James Clovispoint - 31 December 2014 12:18 AM

They have and must have a hierarchy of tenets and of leaders who base their “religion” on something. The wishy-washiness comes from the fact that they seldom if ever dare expose their dogma. I have to admit that they are welcoming and apparently open-minded but there is a foundation that is seldom brought up as if by doing so would be like sticking their necks out to get it chopped off.

Or as if the letter of the official church dogma isn’t very important to many of them and/or they have their priorities a lot more straight than most religious franchises, perhaps even including most of the clergy.

 
 
James Clovispoint
 
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James Clovispoint
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31 December 2014 01:43
 

Speaking of Mutual Admiration Society.

I mentioned in an earlier comment that there is no need to convince anyone that there is no god, because religion has not proven that there is one to begin with. This may sound sarcastic and I wish to correct any misunderstanding of my position in this debate.

I have been in other forums (Ex. Huffington Post, etc.) and have been scorned at for posting comments in religious sections that were blunt and sarcastic but never personal or disrespectful toward anyone. I retorted that it was a Public Forum and by virtue of Freedom of Speech (of which I am well aware), I had the right to make comments on the subject.
I quickly pointed out that as a public forum, anyone who wanted to preach should be prepared to be preached at.
Secondly, I pointed out that if this was a public forum, it was not, therefore, a meeting of the Mutual Admiration Society.

This brings me to two comments.

The first is that all public forums, whether or not one has to register to participate, must not shun or shut out any participant that does not agree with anyone or the majority of the others. Forums are made for debates, preferably gentlemanly, not for declarations of truths imposed by anyone. They must not become Mutual Admiration Societies.

These forums touch perhaps a few hundred people, most of which already have their minds made up. We are not going to change the world on these forums. People such as Sam Harris and Laurence Krauss have much more weight in that domain than we will ever have. So, let’s calm down, stop trying to single out anyone because they are “religionists”, “Holy rollers”, ” “Atheists”, “Gnostics” or another label. Let us remember that we are here to apply reason, logic, gentlemanly debate, exchange of views, of arguments and the like.

It is the richness of arguments and of opinions that allow these forums to function and enrich our experiences. I don’t consider myself as being here to convert anyone to anything but to have a good exchange of ideas. I have often learned from people who had very opposite opinions from me.

 
James Clovispoint
 
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James Clovispoint
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31 December 2014 01:58
 

P.S.:

Dear Newbie,

To fully answer your original question, I think (believe) that it is necessary to consider Institutionalized Religion on two levels.
The first level is the Church itself with its dogma and inflexible structure and the second is at the level of the individual faithful (I avoid the term believer).

The individual faithful will proselytize now and again because he/she has been taught to do so. This is the level where discourse and exchange of opinions and arguments can be presented. This is where gentlemanly conversation can at least bring some light to both sides. This is the level at which changes can occur. We must not be too argumentative and more reasoned and poised.

As for the Church itself, there is no convincing or discussion possible because of the dogma of truth it pretends to possess.

 
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