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Making pedantry - if not cool - at least ok

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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04 October 2014 22:13
 

My ability to spot fallacy arguments has grown since being on PR. Thanks!

But out in the real world, in the media, everywhere, you basically NEVER hear someone getting called out for making a fallacious argument.

Today I saw the Bill Maher, Ben Affleck, Sam Harris video concerning Islam. Even on Maher’s - ostensibly erudite - show, no one called Affleck on strawman arguments.

I understand that it’s possible to go overboard and become a fallacy-spotting-dickwad. On the other hand, it seems to me that a lot of badness is enabled when we give public fallacious arguments a pass and don’t call them out.

So the question is, how to make calling out fallacy arguments more socially acceptable? Drinking games? Fallacy bingo?

 
 
waraboushi
 
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waraboushi
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05 October 2014 09:37
 

Raising awareness to how “offense” and “taking offense” actually works, and (especially) the emotion behind it.

When people get offended, it’s hard to make a constructive point where both parties can learn something. Being loud and emotional is enough to frame negatively any down-to-earth, comprehensive argument. And, it’s easier when you are a known public figure, just like happened in the video.

If there is less resentment and reserve over discussing and arguing, the silver lining of overdoing becomes comprehensible. Mr. Hitchens masterfully did that, by presenting his arguments very elegantly and reserving his feelings of taking offense to the problems that need more attention, instead of directing those emotions towards silly rebukes. Going overboard and risking your “harmony” among people is healthier then not going anywhere, I believe.

[ Edited: 05 October 2014 09:40 by waraboushi]
 
Bugs Bunny
 
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Bugs Bunny
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05 October 2014 13:35
 

Another would be to download the poster that was introduced here on the forum. Poster Thread I ended up ordering the large poster size, after downloading and laminating the one.  Hang them where they are visible in the home and can be discussed while news is on, or any other program with people carrying on a conversation.  It ends up turning into a sort of game.

I’m still not sure if it’s a fallacy, usually said out of frustration such as by Affleck when people ask,  “Well what is the solution?!”  A loaded question?  Almost impossible to answer, and can bring the conversation to a close, without appearing that the solution is too large even for discussion.  Good topic though, it has raised my awareness of the different fallacies.

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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05 October 2014 14:43
 
icehorse - 04 October 2014 08:13 PM

My ability to spot fallacy arguments has grown since being on PR. Thanks!

But out in the real world, in the media, everywhere, you basically NEVER hear someone getting called out for making a fallacious argument.

Today I saw the Bill Maher, Ben Affleck, Sam Harris video concerning Islam. Even on Maher’s - ostensibly erudite - show, no one called Affleck on strawman arguments.

I understand that it’s possible to go overboard and become a fallacy-spotting-dickwad. On the other hand, it seems to me that a lot of badness is enabled when we give public fallacious arguments a pass and don’t call them out.

So the question is, how to make calling out fallacy arguments more socially acceptable? Drinking games? Fallacy bingo?

I was a full time college student a couple years ago and though my claim to be about a hundred, i was class of 69 in high school. I never knew a strawman from an Ad Hominem, so naturally i didnt know, that like grammar, there are rules for using words and “logic” is part of it.  The reason there is no calling out of the strawman and other fallacies is because most people dont even know the definition of “argument” let alone the rules of logical engagement.There are a multitude of fools fooling fools. (see The Dump +BM for Mario and his imaginary “friends and god and shit fooling the crap out of him   smile
gregory

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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05 October 2014 14:47
 
Danna - 05 October 2014 11:35 AM

Another would be to download the poster that was introduced here on the forum. Poster Thread I ended up ordering the large poster size, after downloading and laminating the one.  Hang them where they are visible in the home and can be discussed while news is on, or any other program with people carrying on a conversation.  It ends up turning into a sort of game.

I’m still not sure if it’s a fallacy, usually said out of frustration such as by Affleck when people ask,  “Well what is the solution?!”  A loaded question?  Almost impossible to answer, and can bring the conversation to a close, without appearing that the solution is too large even for discussion.  Good topic though, it has raised my awareness of the different fallacies.

Maybe rephrase the question: “Well, what is a solution ” or what could be a solution? - ask a differently fitting question to get a different maybe better, at least a varied answer to the question.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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05 October 2014 15:45
 
icehorse - 04 October 2014 08:13 PM

Today I saw the Bill Maher, Ben Affleck, Sam Harris video concerning Islam. Even on Maher’s - ostensibly erudite - show, no one called Affleck on strawman arguments.


Yeah, they did. They just didn’t use the term straw man argument.

That’s because terms are just labels for the underlying concepts, they aren’t arguments.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 October 2014 20:56
 
SkepticX - 05 October 2014 01:45 PM
icehorse - 04 October 2014 08:13 PM

Today I saw the Bill Maher, Ben Affleck, Sam Harris video concerning Islam. Even on Maher’s - ostensibly erudite - show, no one called Affleck on strawman arguments.


Yeah, they did. They just didn’t use the term straw man argument.

That’s because terms are just labels for the underlying concepts, they aren’t arguments.

Minor point taken. The broader point remains. It almost seems as if calling out a false argument is considered bad form. That seems backwards to me.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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05 October 2014 21:13
 
icehorse - 05 October 2014 06:56 PM
SkepticX - 05 October 2014 01:45 PM
icehorse - 04 October 2014 08:13 PM

Today I saw the Bill Maher, Ben Affleck, Sam Harris video concerning Islam. Even on Maher’s - ostensibly erudite - show, no one called Affleck on strawman arguments.

Yeah, they did. They just didn’t use the term straw man argument.

That’s because terms are just labels for the underlying concepts, they aren’t arguments.

Minor point taken. The broader point remains. It almost seems as if calling out a false argument is considered bad form. That seems backwards to me.


More like minor point caught, major point missed.

Again, they did call Ben Affleck on his strawman arguments, they just didn’t use the term. The term is just a form attached to the substance it represents. You’re again fixating on the forms rather than the substance.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 October 2014 21:17
 

Hey SkepticX -

Forget about the specific labels. Do you think that - in the media for example - fallacy arguments are typically called out? It’s been my experience that reporters almost ALWAYS give fallacy arguments a pass.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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05 October 2014 21:47
 
icehorse - 05 October 2014 07:17 PM

Forget about the specific labels. Do you think that - in the media for example - fallacy arguments are typically called out? It’s been my experience that reporters almost ALWAYS give fallacy arguments a pass.


Reporters do, analysts don’t.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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05 October 2014 22:24
 
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 12:43 PM

i was class of 69 in high school.]

Geez, you are even older than me.  I was class of ‘70 and I’m 62, but young in my class, so you are 63-64.  My wife was class of ‘69.  I was Round Rock High School, Round Rock, Texas (go Dragons!!!);  what were you?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 October 2014 22:31
 
SkepticX - 05 October 2014 07:47 PM
icehorse - 05 October 2014 07:17 PM

Forget about the specific labels. Do you think that - in the media for example - fallacy arguments are typically called out? It’s been my experience that reporters almost ALWAYS give fallacy arguments a pass.


Reporters do, analysts don’t.

Can you give a few examples of the kinds of analysts you’re referring to? I’m not trying to be difficult, I just found your answer to be ambiguous.

Remember, the point of the OP was about public consumption!!

Let me try to be less ambiguous. As my bio says, I hope that some of these ideas could turn into projects in the world. The OP was about making fallacy arguments less easy to pull off, out in the world. I think it would be awesome if news listeners started complaining that reporters were too soft on their interviewees. I’d like more people to stand up and cry foul when a politician puts forth a fallacy argument.

So when you say “analysts don’t”, it makes me think you’re addressing a less public or popular domain than I had in mind.

[ Edited: 05 October 2014 22:35 by icehorse]
 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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05 October 2014 22:33
 
EN - 05 October 2014 08:24 PM
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 12:43 PM

i was class of 69 in high school.]

Geez, you are even older than me.  I was class of ‘70 and I’m 62, but young in my class, so you are 63-64.  My wife was class of ‘69.  I was Round Rock High School, Round Rock, Texas (go Dragons!!!);  what were you?

i celebrated the 43rd anniversary of my 19th bday last mo - i claim the class of 69 because i went for 3 weeks in september of 69 - that was all she wrote for me and school til 39 years later when i went to college at City College of San Francisco and San Francisco State University. High school was Lanse Creuse (Lancers) in Mt. Clemens MI (but no mountain)

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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05 October 2014 22:45
 
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 08:33 PM
EN - 05 October 2014 08:24 PM
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 12:43 PM

i was class of 69 in high school.]

Geez, you are even older than me.  I was class of ‘70 and I’m 62, but young in my class, so you are 63-64.  My wife was class of ‘69.  I was Round Rock High School, Round Rock, Texas (go Dragons!!!);  what were you?

i celebrated the 43rd anniversary of my 19th bday last mo - i claim the class of 69 because i went for 3 weeks in september of 69 - that was all she wrote for me and school til 39 years later when i went to college at City College of San Francisco and San Francisco State University. High school was Lanse Creuse (Lancers) in Mt. Clemens MI (but no mountain)


i was 62 on September 19.  You??

 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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05 October 2014 23:57
 
EN - 05 October 2014 08:45 PM
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 08:33 PM
EN - 05 October 2014 08:24 PM
Gregoryhhh - 05 October 2014 12:43 PM

i was class of 69 in high school.]

Geez, you are even older than me.  I was class of ‘70 and I’m 62, but young in my class, so you are 63-64.  My wife was class of ‘69.  I was Round Rock High School, Round Rock, Texas (go Dragons!!!);  what were you?

i celebrated the 43rd anniversary of my 19th bday last mo - i claim the class of 69 because i went for 3 weeks in september of 69 - that was all she wrote for me and school til 39 years later when i went to college at City College of San Francisco and San Francisco State University. High school was Lanse Creuse (Lancers) in Mt. Clemens MI (but no mountain)


i was 62 on September 19.  You??

i’m seventeen days older 9-2-52

 
 
SkepticX
 
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06 October 2014 00:07
 
icehorse - 05 October 2014 08:31 PM
SkepticX - 05 October 2014 07:47 PM
icehorse - 05 October 2014 07:17 PM

Forget about the specific labels. Do you think that - in the media for example - fallacy arguments are typically called out? It’s been my experience that reporters almost ALWAYS give fallacy arguments a pass.

Reporters do, analysts don’t.

Can you give a few examples of the kinds of analysts you’re referring to? I’m not trying to be difficult, I just found your answer to be ambiguous.


Commentators vs. reporters. Op Eds and such are analysis, reporting is the material the media produces that the analysts analyze. Some media outlets do a lot of both, and some do nothing but. Some do nothing but and do it badly. They make arguments and counterarguments, but they may not label them all, or any. If you’re looking for the labels you’re not going to find much, if anything, but if you look for actual arguments rather than labels you can find plenty.

 
 
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