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I’m an idiot

 
burt
 
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burt
Total Posts:  15890
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
27 September 2019 10:28
 
Skipshot - 26 September 2019 09:27 PM
RaplhCramden - 26 September 2019 12:54 PM

Being screwed-over by astrology does not mean you should beware of astronomy.  Going to a bad doctor is not a good reason to never go to a doctor again.  One bad apple don’t spoil the whole bunch now.

I didn’t feel like going over the fallacies of your post one by one, but this one really stuck out.

Comparing astrology to astronomy weakens your case something fierce.  Landmark is the astrology in your analogy.  Landmark is not science.

A quack doctor has oversight, can be sued, and can lose his/her license.  Landmark is a quack doctor with no oversight, liability, or license.

Skipshot, I think you’re a bit off here, if the program you were in wasn’t officially Landmark it’s a bit unfair to tar Landmark with the abuses of that program. Which is not to say that Landmark is great or anything, just that criticism needs to be based on something other than experience with something else. In general with LGATs it’s best to check them out very carefully beforehand, but I’m aware of several that are legitimate (disclosure: have been associated the past 45 years with one group that is definitely worthwhile). All I know about Landmark is that it arose as an offshoot of EST and the EST programs had a mixed reputation. I had a number of friends who did EST trainings with varying opinions of the results (most were initially high on it, but later had other thoughts). The knock I heard on EST was that at best it only produced a strong ego. An interesting aside is that I know the guy who passed on a good bit of the material that Werner Erhard modified and used in the EST trainings, without giving credit. Without seeing a description of how Landmark trainings operate and the material presented (including its theoretical and philosophical foundations), however, I can’t directly comment on content or methods. It strikes me, however, as analogous to the early Greek sophists who taught methods for success in Greek society and what they claimed was “virtue.” The best of those (I’m thinking of Isocrates) were effective in what they delivered, but many simply produced unscrupulous egotists (as present day Scientology?). That can be contrasted to the philosophical schools (Plato’s Academy, the Stoics, Epicureans, etc.) and various similarly oriented groups today that work at a deeper level of human development (Vipassana, Buddhist, Tibetan, Sufi, and a few “4th Way Schools”). Basically all of these groups are attractive to people who find that something seems to be missing in ordinary life and hope to find something more. This can range from feelings of social ineptitude, not fitting in, wanting greater success, feeling that one has been deprived of a just due, up to the simply wanting happiness, or the sort of spiritual angst that looks for deeper meaning in life. And there is a market out there that can be likened to an unregulated bazaar where people get what they are attracted to (as in “you can’t cheat an honest man”).

Regarding the experiences you describe, I suspect that Chris and the other “trainers” actually believed that they were attempting to do you a service, that you needed some strong shock treatment. In other words, they were operating out of a fixed script rather than real understanding, in particular they didn’t really understand their own motives or ego structures, and suffered from a need to be in charge (an almost automatic disqualification from any position of authority). And that brings to mind a comment I heard in a lecture back in the late 70s, made by a person who was present himself as enlightened, in response to a question about that claim. Don’t recall exactly so will paraphrase: “I know everything that is inside, everything. If I wasn’t in that state I wouldn’t be teaching. I shouldn’t be teaching because it would be like taking my own dirt and giving it to you.”

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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28 September 2019 08:24
 

Out of curiosity…how much does it cost to have someone tell you exactly what you wanna hear?

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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28 September 2019 09:40
 
LadyJane - 28 September 2019 08:24 AM

Out of curiosity…how much does it cost to have someone tell you exactly what you wanna hear?

Tell me what you want to hear and send a blank check.

More seriously, groups that are serious won’t tell a person what they want to hear but rather what they need to hear. The catch is is knowing what is the need and then framing it in ways that people will listen rather than ignore it.

[ Edited: 28 September 2019 09:42 by burt]
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
28 September 2019 09:44
 

Yes, burt, perhaps Landmark is not as devious and unscrupulous as my experience, but there is an aspect of the training which did not sit well with me, which is that no one was allowed to speak to the trainers during the group sessions, nor were we allowed to speak with each other except during short breaks.  It was a lecture /mass format with no discussion allowed during the lecture.  I admitted above that the training was not all bad since they used well known material which can be found in psychology and philosophy courses, and I did not disagree with what was taught. 

My problem was how the trainers singled me out right away and used that to turn the class and my wife against me.  They were not trying to help, they were trying to hurt in a very deliberate way.  The group-think of us/them quickly was enforced and I was not allowed to defend myself.  It was “get with the program or get out.”  Read my posts again and see how many times they belligerently attacked me in front of the class, in private conversations, and behind my back to my wife, based on a one minute introduction of myself.  Perhaps the plan was to go after the guy who took their sales pitch about training stable, happy people seriously and tear him down to frighten the rest into compliance.

Sure, everyone has different experiences, and different classes have their own culture and vibe, but the hostile demands from trainers, no discussion with each other, and no contradicting the trainers seemed to be a common thread, and cultish.

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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28 September 2019 09:51
 
burt - 28 September 2019 09:40 AM
LadyJane - 28 September 2019 08:24 AM

Out of curiosity…how much does it cost to have someone tell you exactly what you wanna hear?

Tell me what you want to hear and send a blank check.

More seriously, groups that are serious won’t tell a person what they want to hear but rather what they need to hear. The catch is is knowing what is the need and then framing it in ways that people will listen rather than ignore it.

That’s the problem…there’s always a catch.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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28 September 2019 15:44
 
Skipshot - 28 September 2019 09:44 AM

Yes, burt, perhaps Landmark is not as devious and unscrupulous as my experience, but there is an aspect of the training which did not sit well with me, which is that no one was allowed to speak to the trainers during the group sessions, nor were we allowed to speak with each other except during short breaks.  It was a lecture /mass format with no discussion allowed during the lecture.  I admitted above that the training was not all bad since they used well known material which can be found in psychology and philosophy courses, and I did not disagree with what was taught. 

My problem was how the trainers singled me out right away and used that to turn the class and my wife against me.  They were not trying to help, they were trying to hurt in a very deliberate way.  The group-think of us/them quickly was enforced and I was not allowed to defend myself.  It was “get with the program or get out.”  Read my posts again and see how many times they belligerently attacked me in front of the class, in private conversations, and behind my back to my wife, based on a one minute introduction of myself.  Perhaps the plan was to go after the guy who took their sales pitch about training stable, happy people seriously and tear him down to frighten the rest into compliance.

Sure, everyone has different experiences, and different classes have their own culture and vibe, but the hostile demands from trainers, no discussion with each other, and no contradicting the trainers seemed to be a common thread, and cultish.

Which goes with my comment about the trainers. And presumably they are imitating those who trained them, which brings to mind the “shit rolls downhill” meme. Certainly during a lecture unwarranted interruptions aren’t good, but leaving space for questions and comments is important (my wife use to do professional development courses and a good part of her success was based on constructive personal interactions with participants).

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 October 2019 08:41
 

Back in the 80s, the company I worked for gave employees free (voluntary), training in “the forum” and then later made all the managers take “Herman Management Training” (not it’s real name, and I couldn’t easily find a reference to it.)

I took both. The experiences were not pleasant, but I would say that I got some useful perspectives from these experiences. It did feel a bit cult-like, and I’m not convinced that their brutish methods were required. But again, I gained a few perspectives that I think have served me well ever since. One example was “take complete responsibility for your own situation”. While this is hardly a new idea, I suspect one reason that it went from a platitude to an often-used orientation for me was BECAUSE the sessions were so brutish. Maybe a little bit like boot camp?

 
 
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