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Koranic Law versus Shariah Law - Two different Islams

 
Koranist
 
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24 November 2014 05:15
 

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say: ‘Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.”

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe…. Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: “Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant,” It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

67:25 26 And they ask, “When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?” Say, “The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner.”


As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet’s limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else’s right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It’s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It’s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet’s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God’s job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the “sword verse”. They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That’s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. Rather than question the hadiths that contradicts the Quran, they abrogated any Quranic verses that contradicted the hadiths. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority (to force people to follow Islam and its commands) was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. According to these sects, God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this concept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God’s punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler where he can either let a prisoner go free or order his execution. By creating stories about the prophet, they now can transfer that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. Throughtout Islam’s history, Sultans have invaded other territories and imposed taxes and traded in slavery claiming that this is the Sunnah and Shariah. This is all very sad as the taking of someone’s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. A good example of that is how the sects believe that those who steal should have their hand amputated sometimes for as little as ten dinars. A hand for a hand (proportional justice) became a hand for ten dinars (disproportionate justice).

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws abandunatly.  So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them. They knew questions might be raised as to why these laws are not in the Quran etc.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed many aspect of the Sunni/ Shia sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But the clerics also understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder because people expect that capital punishment should be stipulated in the Quran. But this wise tradition was broken. That’s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran’s take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state’s authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That’s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn’t find the ink in the Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that’s very sad.

 
EN
 
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24 November 2014 10:38
 

Given that Islam today, as it is actually practiced, results in bloodshed and/or oppression almost every place where it exists in the majority, wouldn’t it be better for everyone if Islam simply did not exist?

 
GAD
 
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24 November 2014 14:36
 

There is no god and the Koran was written by men for men. So instead of all the effort to argue which version of the ignorance, myth, magic and superstition is the correct version way not argue which men are right, wrong, good, evil…

 
 
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24 November 2014 15:56
 

Thanks, Koranist, for the explanation of the differences, and although I did not read the whole thing, it may help someone who may live in an Islamic country.  I did not read your post since I do live in an Islamic country nor believe in god(s), and most discussions which are based on the assumption god(s) exist eliminates my desire to have a discussion since the topic has no relevance to me.  Are you familiar with the expression, “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”  It means don’t make conclusions about things which haven’t been clearly defined or proven to exist.

I am not trying to insult you, but reminding you of who your audience is.  We are mostly a bunch of flaming infidels, so don’t be hurt if your topic doesn’t attract much attention.

 
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25 November 2014 00:01
 
GAD - 24 November 2014 01:36 PM

There is no god and the Koran was written by men for men. So instead of all the effort to argue which version of the ignorance, myth, magic and superstition is the correct version way not argue which men are right, wrong, good, evil…

I couldn’t have said it better.

 
Koranist
 
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25 November 2014 05:20
 
Skipshot - 24 November 2014 02:56 PM

Thanks, Koranist, for the explanation of the differences, and although I did not read the whole thing, it may help someone who may live in an Islamic country.  I did not read your post since I do live in an Islamic country nor believe in god(s), and most discussions which are based on the assumption god(s) exist eliminates my desire to have a discussion since the topic has no relevance to me.  Are you familiar with the expression, “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”  It means don’t make conclusions about things which haven’t been clearly defined or proven to exist.

I am not trying to insult you, but reminding you of who your audience is.  We are mostly a bunch of flaming infidels, so don’t be hurt if your topic doesn’t attract much attention.

Not at all. I have dealt with audiences that were actually very hostile. I do believe that Quran is about faith. It can not be meaningful to anyone unless they have faith.

Anyways I found that many people actually find what I say facinating. The contradictions that exists between the Quran and how Muslims were made to understand Islam. The topic is somewhat more complicated than that. Because the Clerics of Islam are fully aware of these contraditions and often go out of their way to minimize it. But with the availability of information in our modern era and the rise of radicalism and their impact on world affairs, its getting harder for them to do.

[ Edited: 25 November 2014 05:36 by Koranist]
 
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25 November 2014 05:24
 
EN - 24 November 2014 09:38 AM

Given that Islam today, as it is actually practiced, results in bloodshed and/or oppression almost every place where it exists in the majority, wouldn’t it be better for everyone if Islam simply did not exist?

That is wishful thinking as leaving Islam to most Muslims would be too drastic. As far as violence made in the name of Islam, they have a huge impact on world affairs far more than their numbers. But I believe most Muslims do not know why these groups exist and behave they way they do. As my article said many aspects of Sunni/Shia Islam has been hidden from the masses.

In the end Muslims will have to make a choice. Either they leave Islam as you said, or they accept the status quo, which in time will get more difficult, or they will look for an alternative. That is where Quranist come in.

 
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25 November 2014 09:56
 
Koranist - 24 November 2014 04:15 AM

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet’s limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

A google search from the annotated skeptics bible, there are over 500 verses expressing cruelty in the quran.  What I see is that using the koran even for the well versed muslim leaders agreeing with your conclusion on the above verses, there is still a large amount of cruelty and violence elsewhere.  And, that is bound to become interpreted by a substantial number of people as reason to act violently based on allah’s thoughts.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they’d understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.” 2:39

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

“Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire.” 2:81

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

“They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.” 90

“For disbelievers is a painful doom.” 2:104

Allah will make disbelievers’ lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

“And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.” (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

 
 
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25 November 2014 16:43
 
Koranist - 25 November 2014 04:24 AM

In the end Muslims will have to make a choice. Either they leave Islam as you said, or they accept the status quo, which in time will get more difficult, or they will look for an alternative. That is where Quranist come in.

Why not say what you believe straight out?  Muslims rejecting the concept of Sunni and/or Shia or any other sect nothing new. This is often done in a desperate attempt to save the religion of Islam as an authentic faith whilst salvaging Muhammad and Allah.

Do you believe in Allah’s divine revelations and his messenger Muhammad?

 
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26 November 2014 06:16
 
Danna - 25 November 2014 08:56 AM
Koranist - 24 November 2014 04:15 AM

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet’s limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

A google search from the annotated skeptics bible, there are over 500 verses expressing cruelty in the quran.  What I see is that using the koran even for the well versed muslim leaders agreeing with your conclusion on the above verses, there is still a large amount of cruelty and violence elsewhere.  And, that is bound to become interpreted by a substantial number of people as reason to act violently based on allah’s thoughts.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they’d understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.” 2:39

There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

“Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire.” 2:81

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

“They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.” 90

“For disbelievers is a painful doom.” 2:104

Allah will make disbelievers’ lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

“And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.” (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162


The Quran says that everything a persons ays or do is recorded and presented as evidence on judgement day. So whatever cruelty you are talking about is what a person has brought to themselves. Every deed small or big will be presented and every sould will witness its own record. The Quran says God does not commit even a mustard seed of injustice to anyone.

Quran(Koran) concerning judgement day and justice:

36.65. That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.

101.6 Then, he whose balance will be heavy,

101.7. Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction.

101.8. But he whose balance will be light,-

101.9. Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit.


Also in chapter 99, the Koran tells us:


99.6. On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out, to be shown the deeds that they (had done).

99.7. Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it!

99.8. And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it.


The Koran then tells us:


17.13. Every man’s fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.

17.14.“Read thine record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee.”

And also tells us very clearly

18.49. And the Book will be placed,  and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is therein; they will say, “Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!” They will find all that they did, placed before them: And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.

Also:

75.13. That Day will Man be told that he put forward, and all that he put back

Also:

On that day man shall become aware of all the deeds, good and evil, he has committed through out his life” (75:13).

Also:

We shall restore life to the dead, and We record both the deeds that occurred in the past and the effects to which they gave rise” (36:12).

Also:

“Woe Upon us! What kind of a book is this that records and enumerates with precision all of our deeds, great and small?”,They shall see all of their deeds, present before them, and God shall not wrong anyone (18:49).

Also:

On the day that God raises up all men for the accounting to make them aware of the results of all the deeds He has recorded and they have forgotten; indeed God is a Witness to all creatures in the world” (58:6).

Also:


2.286. On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:)

Also:

6.164. Say: “Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than God, when He is the Cherisher of all things? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed.


2.281. And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.

Also:

80.33-42 At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,- That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,  And from his mother and his father,  And from his wife and his children. Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern to make him indifferent to the others. Some faces that Day will be beaming, laughing, rejoicing. And other faces that Day will be dust-stained, Blackness will cover them: Such will be the Rejecters of God, the doers of iniquity.


48.14. To God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills: but God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Anyways I want to comment on some of the verses you quoted since its interpretation are not accurate.

The verse about angels actually says that when God decided to send humans and rulers to Earth the angels asked why would you create a creature that will shed blood like the rest of the Earth’s inhabitants. God then responds by letting them know that this creature can learn and speak language.

Also verse 2.85 was about the Israelites slaying each other and evicting others from their homes when they were told not to do so. It was refering to their history of disobedience and breaking the covenants with God.

It is always a good idea to quote the actual verse from a recognized Quranic translation since the net is filled with agenda driven individuals.

[ Edited: 26 November 2014 06:28 by MARTIN_UK]
 
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28 November 2014 17:14
 

There seems to me multiple forms of Islam based on conversations and a little Quran background history.

First you have misquoted and heretical religions snippets that Mohammed heard during his young life rolled into one new interpretation. Then you get his Id, isms and ravings manifesting into new revelations as his mood fluctuated. All wrapped into a barbaric Arab subculture of envy, tribalism, theft, and bribery.
So you get the original Message, and on his death that same Message written onto a few books all of which are now lost!

Some hundred years later a reboot of the religion is performed by 4 scribes into a new Arabic language. Ordered to get all texts of the past related to the prophets words, put them together as one book, and use the oldest version of Mohammed’s language when in doubt as to what text is correct.

The Caliph burns all the ‘rejected texts’ and sends this new authorised Quran with instructions to be rid of older Qurans. It is suspected one of those old versions survived.

Decades later the Hadiths started to get written into interpretive texts because the Quran misses vital information!!! ie the Quran says to pray, but not what to say or how many times a day.

So have you got enough versions… nope as the eras come and go you get more schools of interpretations.


Islam is a very stupid religion for very stupid people, and its only blessing has been the vast majority of Muslims haven’t a clue what the book actually calls them to do, or that their perfect Muslim example was a deluded egotistical psychopath.

 
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28 November 2014 17:28
 
GPzW - 28 November 2014 04:14 PM

Islam is a very stupid religion for very stupid people, and its only blessing has been the vast majority of Muslims haven’t a clue what the book actually calls them to do, or that their perfect Muslim example was a deluded egotistical psychopath.

This would be excellent summary except for the bold. We all choose prisons of our own making and we live culturally isolated from outside. Therefore “stupid people” comment would include billions of others, not limited to Muslims.

 
GPzW
 
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28 November 2014 20:24
 

If you like you can replace the words with one that describes the following statement,

“to be a good Muslim you can’t understand the Quran, because if you understood the Quran you wouldn’t want to be a Muslim.”

the only one I could think of was very stupid.

 
Celal
 
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29 November 2014 16:39
 
Koranist - 26 November 2014 05:16 AM


The Quran says that everything a persons ays or do is recorded and presented as evidence on judgement day. So whatever cruelty you are talking about is what a person has brought to themselves. Every deed small or big will be presented and every sould will witness its own record. The Quran says God does not commit even a mustard seed of injustice to anyone.

Quran(Koran) concerning judgement day and justice:

36.65. That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.

101.6 Then, he whose balance will be heavy,

101.7. Will be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction.

101.8. But he whose balance will be light,-

101.9. Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit.


Also in chapter 99, the Koran tells us:


99.6. On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out, to be shown the deeds that they (had done).

99.7. Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it!

99.8. And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it.


The Koran then tells us:


17.13. Every man’s fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.

17.14.“Read thine record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee.”

And also tells us very clearly

18.49. And the Book will be placed,  and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is therein; they will say, “Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!” They will find all that they did, placed before them: And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.

Also:

75.13. That Day will Man be told that he put forward, and all that he put back

Also:

On that day man shall become aware of all the deeds, good and evil, he has committed through out his life” (75:13).

Also:

We shall restore life to the dead, and We record both the deeds that occurred in the past and the effects to which they gave rise” (36:12).

Also:

“Woe Upon us! What kind of a book is this that records and enumerates with precision all of our deeds, great and small?”,They shall see all of their deeds, present before them, and God shall not wrong anyone (18:49).

Also:

On the day that God raises up all men for the accounting to make them aware of the results of all the deeds He has recorded and they have forgotten; indeed God is a Witness to all creatures in the world” (58:6).

Also:


2.286. On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:)

Also:

6.164. Say: “Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than God, when He is the Cherisher of all things? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed.


2.281. And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.

Also:

80.33-42 At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,- That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,  And from his mother and his father,  And from his wife and his children. Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern to make him indifferent to the others. Some faces that Day will be beaming, laughing, rejoicing. And other faces that Day will be dust-stained, Blackness will cover them: Such will be the Rejecters of God, the doers of iniquity.


48.14. To God belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills: but God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Anyways I want to comment on some of the verses you quoted since its interpretation are not accurate.

The verse about angels actually says that when God decided to send humans and rulers to Earth the angels asked why would you create a creature that will shed blood like the rest of the Earth’s inhabitants. God then responds by letting them know that this creature can learn and speak language.

Also verse 2.85 was about the Israelites slaying each other and evicting others from their homes when they were told not to do so. It was refering to their history of disobedience and breaking the covenants with God.

It is always a good idea to quote the actual verse from a recognized Quranic translation since the net is filled with agenda driven individuals.

Koranist, your habit of copy and paste verses is commonly seen among Muslims. It does not mean you understand what you post. I can teach a parrot to state the shahada and it would become Muslim, I would have trouble trying to get it to reason though. I suspect you are no different.

 
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30 November 2014 18:58
 
Koranist - 26 November 2014 05:16 AM
Danna - 25 November 2014 08:56 AM
Koranist - 24 November 2014 04:15 AM

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet’s limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

A google search from the annotated skeptics bible, there are over 500 verses expressing cruelty in the quran.  What I see is that using the koran even for the well versed muslim leaders agreeing with your conclusion on the above verses, there is still a large amount of cruelty and violence elsewhere.  And, that is bound to become interpreted by a substantial number of people as reason to act violently based on allah’s thoughts.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

 

It is always a good idea to quote the actual verse from a recognized Quranic translation since the net is filled with agenda driven individuals.

True.  There is also the agenda that would inspire an individual to teach or educate western minded atheists about the “true” interpretation of the Quran.  I fail to understand how the downloaded Pickthall version, a more accurate but not perfect version,  would have helped when our worlds are separated by more than just a displaced word or meaning,  here or there.  What an atheist westerner might observe, would look entirely different than what a believer from the Middle East of either sect.

 
 
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04 December 2014 09:11
 
GPzW - 28 November 2014 04:14 PM

There seems to me multiple forms of Islam based on conversations and a little Quran background history.

First you have misquoted and heretical religions snippets that Mohammed heard during his young life rolled into one new interpretation. Then you get his Id, isms and ravings manifesting into new revelations as his mood fluctuated. All wrapped into a barbaric Arab subculture of envy, tribalism, theft, and bribery.
So you get the original Message, and on his death that same Message written onto a few books all of which are now lost!

Some hundred years later a reboot of the religion is performed by 4 scribes into a new Arabic language. Ordered to get all texts of the past related to the prophets words, put them together as one book, and use the oldest version of Mohammed’s language when in doubt as to what text is correct.

The Caliph burns all the ‘rejected texts’ and sends this new authorised Quran with instructions to be rid of older Qurans. It is suspected one of those old versions survived.

Decades later the Hadiths started to get written into interpretive texts because the Quran misses vital information!!! ie the Quran says to pray, but not what to say or how many times a day.

So have you got enough versions… nope as the eras come and go you get more schools of interpretations.


Islam is a very stupid religion for very stupid people, and its only blessing has been the vast majority of Muslims haven’t a clue what the book actually calls them to do, or that their perfect Muslim example was a deluded egotistical psychopath.

Who was the author of the Quran is irrelevant. Anyways its based on faith like who created the world.

The topic was about the Quran versus Shariah law and the differences between the two. Who the author was is irrelevant to the topic.

If you were only given the Quran to know Islam from and then you visited a Muslim country, what are the similarities and differences you will have with them. Its based on text and what it says versus what Muslims came to believe.

 
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