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Fuck Islam and fuck Mohammed

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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08 January 2015 17:33
 
NicLynn - 08 January 2015 02:10 PM

Who are you trying to convince of something, LJ?

I ventured out for Halloween, years ago, dressed up as Benazir Bhutto and she was the first chick that came to mind when you mentioned Muslim women in politics.  If you look back at the history you will quickly learn that corruption and assassinations plagued the Bhutto family.  When you dismiss the perspective history provides you are willingly ignoring events that shape our world.  And by ignoring these events, and those of us attempting to shine a light on them, you are dismissing the perspectives of those of us that want to reach an understanding. 

The events that transpired in Paris inflict a different sort of wound because these were not politicians.  These were not military personnel.  This attack was aimed at cartoonists.  I’m pretty sure we’re all on the same page of this one.  Please pass me a pen.

 
 
sojourner
 
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sojourner
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08 January 2015 18:05
 

Ok. Good for you Lady Jane.

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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08 January 2015 19:24
 
LadyJane - 08 January 2015 04:33 PM
NicLynn - 08 January 2015 02:10 PM

Who are you trying to convince of something, LJ?

I ventured out for Halloween, years ago, dressed up as Benazir Bhutto and she was the first chick that came to mind when you mentioned Muslim women in politics.  If you look back at the history you will quickly learn that corruption and assassinations plagued the Bhutto family.  When you dismiss the perspective history provides you are willingly ignoring events that shape our world.  And by ignoring these events, and those of us attempting to shine a light on them, you are dismissing the perspectives of those of us that want to reach an understanding. 

The events that transpired in Paris inflict a different sort of wound because these were not politicians.  These were not military personnel.  This attack was aimed at cartoonists.  I’m pretty sure we’re all on the same page of this one.  Please pass me a pen.

Um, it was not aimed at cartoonists, it was aimed at “the others” - that includes you, Mi LadyJane
gregory

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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08 January 2015 19:37
 

Fuck fundamental islamists. And fuck Mohammed, too!

Evening, Skip :)

 
 
Dennis Campbell
 
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Dennis Campbell
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08 January 2015 20:13
 

It is already happening, obviously, but I fully expect that ISIS et el will be when we kill not just the thugs and fanatics out front, but the calculating leaders hiding elsewhere; who care not a whit about Allah, but power.  They can use weapons, but cannot make them.  One day, when they’ve killed enough civilians, and maybe some politicians, we’ll get off our “let’s talk” asses and deal with them.  Sure, lots of innocent people will be killed, on both sides, no help for that.  Welcome to a 5th world culture meeting 1st world society.

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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08 January 2015 23:12
 
EN - 07 January 2015 06:19 PM
Gregoryhhh - 07 January 2015 06:13 PM

It’s the Abramic religions - one god, three religions - all killing each other. That “God” - What a sociopath!
gregory

Fundamentalist Islam is by far the worst.


En,

You are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

Faith in things that aren’t true is dangerous

If people can believe there is an imaginary supernatural entity that expects (any combination of the following) a person to avoid pork, reject Gays, believe a human zygote is a person, take folk tales as truth, convert people to the same belief system, have people speak repetitive nonsense words, and believe in an alternative universe;
 
                                                  Why can’t they kill or torture the infidels (people) for the reward they might expect in their imaginary paradise.

They can, and they do.

Your beliefs are no more true than theirs, and thus no less dangerous.

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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08 January 2015 23:51
 

With respect to women in positions of leadership, the Western World up until about 100 years ago was not very progressive about this, either.

Cultures change slowly. I remember reading something about it taking seven generations, or about two centuries. That makes sense. Take the good old USA. We’ve got people here who feel like they missed out on the 19th century, and would like to have all those good times back. They’ve evidently managed to convince a majority of the voting population that they are right, too.

The Middle East is still trying to recover, politically, from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which happened a little less than 100 years ago (Lawrence of Arabia and all that, if you recall). They still haven’t sorted things out, and various dynamic constraints of geopolitics are making it difficult for a typical historical dynamic to come about. That typical historical dynamic is some empire-builder from Persia, Anatolia, or Egypt ass-kicking his way to domination of the entire region. In the meantime, greed and ignorance find ways to erode the flimsy structures left after the Europeans got done drawing lines on the map of the region.

Couple that with a collective inferiority complex among Middle Easter Muslims, because of the recent historical dominance of European culture, and you have a mix that is very much like that which brought Hitler to power. The main difference that I can see is that more people are involved, and the roots of the inferiority complex are deeper.

As for believing untrue things, I ask any citizen of the United States of America exactly what Freedom and Liberty mean, and exactly what Capitalism means, and how Freedom and Liberty are at all related to Capitalism except in the minds of Capitalists? I remember listening to a speech by George H. W. Bush when he was president, where he was waxing as eloquently as he could about Freedom, and I thought at the time that I couldn’t have heard any better example of mythology. That man, psychologically speaking, knew nothing of freedom; he was defined entirely by a sense of duty. I single out the USA because I know it best, and have had to live amid this mind-rot my entire life. I can ask the same unpleasant questions for any belief systems, especially for any that are tied to politics, quite independent of any content they have that involves purported deities. We all believe the bullshit we make up, or that was made up for us, or pretend to believe it, to prove that we are loyal to each other, or to pretend to such loyalty.

[ Edited: 08 January 2015 23:57 by Poldano]
 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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09 January 2015 00:44
 
jdrnd - 08 January 2015 10:12 PM
EN - 07 January 2015 06:19 PM
Gregoryhhh - 07 January 2015 06:13 PM

It’s the Abramic religions - one god, three religions - all killing each other. That “God” - What a sociopath!
gregory

Fundamentalist Islam is by far the worst.


En,

You are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

Faith in things that aren’t true is dangerous

If people can believe there is an imaginary supernatural entity that expects (any combination of the following) a person to avoid pork, reject Gays, believe a human zygote is a person, take folk tales as truth, convert people to the same belief system, have people speak repetitive nonsense words, and believe in an alternative universe;
 
                                                  Why can’t they kill or torture the infidels (people) for the reward they might expect in their imaginary paradise.

They can, and they do.

Your beliefs are no more true than theirs, and thus no less dangerous.

Yes they are no less dangerous - a fitting example is Leelah Alcorn the 17 year old transsexual who “recounted the adverse reaction she received from her born again Christian parents when she told them she had felt like a “girl trapped in a boy’s body” since the age of four.” Her Mother took her to conversion therapy for six months.

Alcorn said her mother told her she would never truly be a girl and that “God doesn’t make mistakes”. She was taken out of school and barred from using social media, thus isolating her from friends and a support network. She was taken to see therapists but, Alcorn noted, only to “christian [sic] therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help”.

She ended her suicide note with a plea for action: “My death needs to be counted in the number of transgender people who commit suicide this year. I want someone to look at that number and say ‘that’s fucked up’ and fix it. Fix society. Please.”

Hate is belittlement is murder - Christians kill people. Cristian mothers kill children.
gregory

 
 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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09 January 2015 01:36
 
Gregoryhhh - 08 January 2015 11:44 PM

...
Yes they are no less dangerous - a fitting example is Leelah Alcorn the 17 year old transsexual who “recounted the adverse reaction she received from her born again Christian parents when she told them she had felt like a “girl trapped in a boy’s body” since the age of four.” Her Mother took her to conversion therapy for six months.

Alcorn said her mother told her she would never truly be a girl and that “God doesn’t make mistakes”. She was taken out of school and barred from using social media, thus isolating her from friends and a support network. She was taken to see therapists but, Alcorn noted, only to “christian [sic] therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help”.

She ended her suicide note with a plea for action: “My death needs to be counted in the number of transgender people who commit suicide this year. I want someone to look at that number and say ‘that’s fucked up’ and fix it. Fix society. Please.”

Hate is belittlement is murder - Christians kill people. Cristian mothers kill children.
gregory

One should be very careful about assuming that belief in X necessarily entails belief in all claims made about X.

I could take the belief system of the woman in this story as an example of exactly how Christians should not behave. Even assuming that “God doesn’t make mistakes,” it is not always obvious what the truth is. One obvious interpretation, entirely in line with my interpretation of Christian morality, is that the child’s condition was a challenge to his/her parents and community to see the person of Christ where they do not expect to see it, and indeed do not want to see it. In this interpretation, they failed miserably, but may have the opportunity to repent and enlarge their notions and their spirits.

Also, please note that I am not asserting a belief in the interpretation I just put forth. I am using it as an example of how interpretation is so very important in these matters, and how very incorrect (i.e., unscientific, confirmation-biased, perhaps morally and ethically wrong) it is to make broad-brush assumptions.

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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09 January 2015 01:50
 
Poldano - 08 January 2015 10:51 PM

I can ask the same unpleasant questions for any belief systems, especially for any that are tied to politics, quite independent of any content they have that involves purported deities. We all believe the bullshit we make up, or that was made up for us, or pretend to believe it, to prove that we are loyal to each other, or to pretend to such loyalty.

I agree with you that there is a mythology underlying all cultures.  In fact I distinctly remember that what interested me most about my college Sociology course was that it strove to understand those myths.  But just because you perceive that our politicians and others fabricate a social atmosphere based partially on false premises doesn’t mean that:
  1. All cultural mythologies are equal.
  2. That some cultural mythologies can’t lead to disaster
  3. And that cultural mythologies that promote bizarre thought are no worse than those that just promote ideas that are wrong.
      A.  This is because you can discuss global warming, homosexuality, income equality in rational terms, giving observable sometimes measurable examples.
      B.  But How do argue against the statement: “an invisible entity told me it was so and I believe him”.

 
EN
 
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EN
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09 January 2015 02:02
 

Western Democracy grew out of Christian soil. Democracy and Western Christianity developed together in the past few centuries, and have grown accustomed to each other.  Most of us live in democratic, Christian majority or at least historically Christian countries. 

The same cannot be said of Islam. It has not had the exposure to democracy, the reformative influence of modern science and political theory, that Western Christianity has had. To say that Islam and modern Christianity are cut of the same cloth is to totally misunderstand the historical developments of the past several hundred years. 

Furthermore, the brutality of the Old Testament is tempered by the Christian New Testament in the Bible.  The opposite is true in Islam.  The more peaceful passages are Meccan and earlier, while the Medinan suras are more violent and later.  These are the passages that inspire the disaffected young men of Islam.

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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09 January 2015 02:17
 
jdrnd - 09 January 2015 12:50 AM
Poldano - 08 January 2015 10:51 PM

I can ask the same unpleasant questions for any belief systems, especially for any that are tied to politics, quite independent of any content they have that involves purported deities. We all believe the bullshit we make up, or that was made up for us, or pretend to believe it, to prove that we are loyal to each other, or to pretend to such loyalty.

I agree with you that there is a mythology underlying all cultures.  In fact I distinctly remember that what interested me most about my college Sociology course was that it strove to understand those myths.  But just because you perceive that our politicians and others fabricate a social atmosphere based partially on false premises doesn’t mean that:
  1. All cultural mythologies are equal.
  2. That some cultural mythologies can’t lead to disaster
  3. And that cultural mythologies that promote bizarre thought are no worse than those that just promote ideas that are wrong.
      A.  This is because you can discuss global warming, homosexuality, income equality in rational terms, giving observable sometimes measurable examples.
      B.  But How do argue against the statement: “an invisible entity told me it was so and I believe him”.

I’m glad to see you responding.

I did not claim that all sets of falsehoods are equally useful. My point was simply to rebut the criticism that falsehoods should be eradicated simply because they are demonstrably not entirely true. I think the gist of my posts in other threads where we have communicated is that we cannot avoid some degree of falsehood in our understanding of reality. The problem is in picking apart each system of understanding to find out what is useful, what is unavoidable, and what is undesirable. I am of course using the term “falsehood” loosely; in this usage, any degree of deviation between the model and the reality is a falsehood of some kind.

This thread is a broad-brush criticism of Islam, and makes no effort to look into the details. Emotionally satisfying, perhaps, but otherwise pointless. Some are making some effort to bring up details, but at least some of them are being shot down for their own belief systems. I’m simply pointing my blaster at a good target that everyone else would evidently like to ignore, as an example of shared deficiency in the truth department.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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09 January 2015 04:13
 
Poldano - 09 January 2015 01:17 AM
jdrnd - 09 January 2015 12:50 AM
Poldano - 08 January 2015 10:51 PM

I can ask the same unpleasant questions for any belief systems, especially for any that are tied to politics, quite independent of any content they have that involves purported deities. We all believe the bullshit we make up, or that was made up for us, or pretend to believe it, to prove that we are loyal to each other, or to pretend to such loyalty.

I agree with you that there is a mythology underlying all cultures.  In fact I distinctly remember that what interested me most about my college Sociology course was that it strove to understand those myths.  But just because you perceive that our politicians and others fabricate a social atmosphere based partially on false premises doesn’t mean that:
  1. All cultural mythologies are equal.
  2. That some cultural mythologies can’t lead to disaster
  3. And that cultural mythologies that promote bizarre thought are no worse than those that just promote ideas that are wrong.
      A.  This is because you can discuss global warming, homosexuality, income equality in rational terms, giving observable sometimes measurable examples.
      B.  But How do argue against the statement: “an invisible entity told me it was so and I believe him”.

I’m glad to see you responding.

I did not claim that all sets of falsehoods are equally useful. My point was simply to rebut the criticism that falsehoods should be eradicated simply because they are demonstrably not entirely true. I think the gist of my posts in other threads where we have communicated is that we cannot avoid some degree of falsehood in our understanding of reality. The problem is in picking apart each system of understanding to find out what is useful, what is unavoidable, and what is undesirable. I am of course using the term “falsehood” loosely; in this usage, any degree of deviation between the model and the reality is a falsehood of some kind.

This thread is a broad-brush criticism of Islam, and makes no effort to look into the details. Emotionally satisfying, perhaps, but otherwise pointless. Some are making some effort to bring up details, but at least some of them are being shot down for their own belief systems. I’m simply pointing my blaster at a good target that everyone else would evidently like to ignore, as an example of shared deficiency in the truth department.

It’s easy to obfuscate. How much evidence would you need to see to decide that the broad-brush criticism is appropriate?

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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09 January 2015 12:26
 
icehorse - 09 January 2015 03:13 AM
Poldano - 09 January 2015 01:17 AM
jdrnd - 09 January 2015 12:50 AM
Poldano - 08 January 2015 10:51 PM

I can ask the same unpleasant questions for any belief systems, especially for any that are tied to politics, quite independent of any content they have that involves purported deities. We all believe the bullshit we make up, or that was made up for us, or pretend to believe it, to prove that we are loyal to each other, or to pretend to such loyalty.

I agree with you that there is a mythology underlying all cultures.  In fact I distinctly remember that what interested me most about my college Sociology course was that it strove to understand those myths.  But just because you perceive that our politicians and others fabricate a social atmosphere based partially on false premises doesn’t mean that:
  1. All cultural mythologies are equal.
  2. That some cultural mythologies can’t lead to disaster
  3. And that cultural mythologies that promote bizarre thought are no worse than those that just promote ideas that are wrong.
      A.  This is because you can discuss global warming, homosexuality, income equality in rational terms, giving observable sometimes measurable examples.
      B.  But How do argue against the statement: “an invisible entity told me it was so and I believe him”.

I’m glad to see you responding.

I did not claim that all sets of falsehoods are equally useful. My point was simply to rebut the criticism that falsehoods should be eradicated simply because they are demonstrably not entirely true. I think the gist of my posts in other threads where we have communicated is that we cannot avoid some degree of falsehood in our understanding of reality. The problem is in picking apart each system of understanding to find out what is useful, what is unavoidable, and what is undesirable. I am of course using the term “falsehood” loosely; in this usage, any degree of deviation between the model and the reality is a falsehood of some kind.

This thread is a broad-brush criticism of Islam, and makes no effort to look into the details. Emotionally satisfying, perhaps, but otherwise pointless. Some are making some effort to bring up details, but at least some of them are being shot down for their own belief systems. I’m simply pointing my blaster at a good target that everyone else would evidently like to ignore, as an example of shared deficiency in the truth department.

l second the motion on “shared deficiency in the truth department”.
gregory

 
 
Gregoryhhh
 
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Gregoryhhh
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09 January 2015 12:33
 
Poldano - 09 January 2015 12:36 AM
Gregoryhhh - 08 January 2015 11:44 PM

...
Yes they are no less dangerous - a fitting example is Leelah Alcorn the 17 year old transsexual who “recounted the adverse reaction she received from her born again Christian parents when she told them she had felt like a “girl trapped in a boy’s body” since the age of four.” Her Mother took her to conversion therapy for six months.

Alcorn said her mother told her she would never truly be a girl and that “God doesn’t make mistakes”. She was taken out of school and barred from using social media, thus isolating her from friends and a support network. She was taken to see therapists but, Alcorn noted, only to “christian [sic] therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help”.

She ended her suicide note with a plea for action: “My death needs to be counted in the number of transgender people who commit suicide this year. I want someone to look at that number and say ‘that’s fucked up’ and fix it. Fix society. Please.”

Hate is belittlement is murder - Christians kill people. Cristian mothers kill children.
gregory

One should be very careful about assuming that belief in X necessarily entails belief in all claims made about X.

I could take the belief system of the woman in this story as an example of exactly how Christians should not behave. Even assuming that “God doesn’t make mistakes,” it is not always obvious what the truth is. One obvious interpretation, entirely in line with my interpretation of Christian morality, is that the child’s condition was a challenge to his/her parents and community to see the person of Christ where they do not expect to see it, and indeed do not want to see it. In this interpretation, they failed miserably, but may have the opportunity to repent and enlarge their notions and their spirits.

Also, please note that I am not asserting a belief in the interpretation I just put forth. I am using it as an example of how interpretation is so very important in these matters, and how very incorrect (i.e., unscientific, confirmation-biased, perhaps morally and ethically wrong) it is to make broad-brush assumptions.

Yes and there were some quotes from the mother which were led me to not assumptions, but self admitted facts - And forgive me Polondo, i spent 12 years in preciously that very same church type, so yes i do have a bone to pick with them and be that as it may -they are dangerous.
gregory

 
 
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