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Poll: I think I would enjoy a conversation between Sam Harris and Bill Warner.
 

I would absolutely listen!

Yeah, I’d probably listen

I dunno.... maybe

I have no interest in this conversation.

 

Sam should have a conversation with Bill Warner

 
Sven62
 
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Sven62
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24 January 2016 10:05
 

Bill Warner, as we all know, has some very interesting things to say about Islam. One of the most intriguing is his assertion that we cannot defeat religious Islam, we can only defeat political Islam. I would enjoy listening to a conversation between Sam and Bill.

FYI, Gad Saad just posted a great interview with Bill.

(If you vote, please explain your reasoning. Thank you!)

[ Edited: 24 January 2016 10:26 by Sven62]
 
 
sojourner
 
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sojourner
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24 January 2016 10:32
 

Ack, no! Are we talking about the Bill Warner whose real name is Bill French? I can’t find out much about him because most of the sites a Google search pulls up are not sites I’d want to click on, but he’s listed as being a leader of a potential hate group.


Whether or not extreme xenophobia has any place in the world is a question that is open for debate. Like some of our more animalistic instincts, we may need a few fringe groups to keep that mostly dormant thought pattern alive in the event that some sort of apocalyptic event happens and we’re running around the wilderness a la The Walking Dead with fierce competition for scant resources and no idea who to trust. In that case, perhaps extreme in-group-ism is justified, and perhaps some small percentage of people continuing to embody this way of thinking keeps it alive in our collective mind should it ever be needed again.


In the current environment, though, this kind of xenophobia is destructive for everyone. There are some fringe people who are going to do that no matter what, and while I don’t like it, I get that this is pretty much who they are. Harris may have some issues specific to Islam (I think his logic and metrics for judgement suddenly change when that particular topic comes up, so that someone who would be horrified by the idea of racial profiling thinks religious profiling is just good common sense) but at least it seems like a pattern that’s isolated more or less to a specific topic. I can tell myself he’s just a tortured soul or something. But straight up hate groups are a rather different mentality.

 
 
Sven62
 
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24 January 2016 10:51
 

I don’t think we’re talking about the same guy.  I mean this guy: He just did a great interview with Gad Saad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/author/

 
 
sojourner
 
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24 January 2016 11:02
 
Sven62 - 24 January 2016 10:51 AM

I don’t think we’re talking about the same guy.  I mean this guy: He just did a great interview with Gad Saad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/author/


Again, I don’t know anything about him, but I think that’s the same guy as the one listed here.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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24 January 2016 12:17
 
Niclynn - 24 January 2016 11:02 AM
Sven62 - 24 January 2016 10:51 AM

I don’t think we’re talking about the same guy.  I mean this guy: He just did a great interview with Gad Saad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/author/


Again, I don’t know anything about him, but I think that’s the same guy as the one listed here.

No it’s not the same guy and Bill Warner threads and videos have been posted on here (and PR) for years.

PS don’t call any discussion or dislike of Islam xenophobia, that is just your own ambivalence and bias.

 
 
sojourner
 
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24 January 2016 14:08
 
GAD - 24 January 2016 12:17 PM

PS don’t call any discussion or dislike of Islam xenophobia, that is just your own ambivalence and bias.


This is why I’ve already had it up to here with the !!!REGRESSIVE LEFT!!! meme. I was talking about someone on a hate group watch list, by a well regarded group (And if they’re not the same person, they have randomly identical biographies and names). Sorry, this frustration is not aimed at you personally, it’s that now I see the same careless use of this idea on Twitter where people post cartoons showing “the Left” supporting the murder of gays, FGM, etc., in the name of religion. This gets back to the dynamic of blindly insisting that those who are activists for prisoner rights are “pro crime”, analogous to posting pictures of victims of crime whose mistreatment they supposedly “support”. If people have a good solid case to make, they don’t resort to tactics like that.

 
 
Sven62
 
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24 January 2016 21:07
 

Well if it’s the same guy he sure doesn’t come off as a member of a hate group in this interview. Watch for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmfUdQL8ho

And sorry you’re tired of the Regressive Left meme, but you know what…  so the fuck am I. I’m tired of listening to supposed liberals not standing up for free speech, women’s rights, and against religious bullshit. LISTEN to ex-Musilm women who grew up in any one of dozens of Islamic countries. Hear what they say. These are not members of hate groups. They are not right wing nut jobs. They are women and girls who lived a very common and horrible life in an Islamic country. These countries are spreading this religious buillshit all over the fucking globe, including right here in our own country.

NOT calling it religious bullshit and instead allowing it to walk in under the umbrella of tolerance is the realm of the Regressive Left.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Sarah Haider
Malala Yousafzai
Anne Marie Waters

[ Edited: 24 January 2016 22:20 by Sven62]
 
 
Sven62
 
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Sven62
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24 January 2016 21:34
 
Niclynn - 24 January 2016 02:08 PM
GAD - 24 January 2016 12:17 PM

This is why I’ve already had it up to here with the !!!REGRESSIVE LEFT!!! meme. I was talking about someone on a hate group watch list, by a well regarded group.

And I have great respect for SPLC. They have done great work for many decades. But, it doesn’t mean they are always right.

Let us take a lesson from the UK. Check out Anne Marie Waters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CdR1Jd5wag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGbSs2hGI6w

[ Edited: 24 January 2016 22:18 by Sven62]
 
 
sojourner
 
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25 January 2016 06:59
 
Sven62 - 24 January 2016 09:07 PM

And sorry you’re tired of the Regressive Left meme, but you know what…  so the fuck am I. I’m tired of listening to supposed liberals not standing up for free speech, women’s rights, and against religious bullshit. LISTEN to ex-Musilm women who grew up in any one of dozens of Islamic countries. Hear what they say. These are not members of hate groups. They are not right wing nut jobs. They are women and girls who lived a very common and horrible life in an Islamic country. These countries are spreading this religious buillshit all over the fucking globe, including right here in our own country.

NOT calling it religious bullshit and instead allowing it to walk in under the umbrella of tolerance is the realm of the Regressive Left.


The reason I am tired of it is that this is a baseless accusation. Who are these people? What did they say exactly? What percentage of liberals are “ok” with female oppression? Without any kind of data to back it up, it’s just name calling.

 
 
icehorse
 
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25 January 2016 18:52
 
Niclynn - 25 January 2016 06:59 AM
Sven62 - 24 January 2016 09:07 PM

And sorry you’re tired of the Regressive Left meme, but you know what…  so the fuck am I. I’m tired of listening to supposed liberals not standing up for free speech, women’s rights, and against religious bullshit. LISTEN to ex-Musilm women who grew up in any one of dozens of Islamic countries. Hear what they say. These are not members of hate groups. They are not right wing nut jobs. They are women and girls who lived a very common and horrible life in an Islamic country. These countries are spreading this religious buillshit all over the fucking globe, including right here in our own country.

NOT calling it religious bullshit and instead allowing it to walk in under the umbrella of tolerance is the realm of the Regressive Left.


The reason I am tired of it is that this is a baseless accusation. Who are these people? What did they say exactly? What percentage of liberals are “ok” with female oppression? Without any kind of data to back it up, it’s just name calling.

Niclynn,

The point is that many liberals have bought into the cultural- relativism meme. Once you buy into that, you have to look the other way if another culture is - for example - systemically misogynistic.

 
 
sojourner
 
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26 January 2016 14:32
 
icehorse - 25 January 2016 06:52 PM

Niclynn,

The point is that many liberals have bought into the cultural- relativism meme. Once you buy into that, you have to look the other way if another culture is - for example - systemically misogynistic.


That’s not at all what relativism means, at least not most forms of it. In general, it’s more a statement that morality comes from people, not some Objective Set Of Rules (often posited as God, but not always). If anything, a relativist has more responsibility in regulating the morality of others, because they have no ‘fallback’ in terms of God or some universal standard that, often in those paradigms, will assert itself one way or another.

 
 
icehorse
 
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26 January 2016 16:58
 
Niclynn - 26 January 2016 02:32 PM
icehorse - 25 January 2016 06:52 PM

Niclynn,

The point is that many liberals have bought into the cultural- relativism meme. Once you buy into that, you have to look the other way if another culture is - for example - systemically misogynistic.

That’s not at all what relativism means, at least not most forms of it. In general, it’s more a statement that morality comes from people, not some Objective Set Of Rules (often posited as God, but not always). If anything, a relativist has more responsibility in regulating the morality of others, because they have no ‘fallback’ in terms of God or some universal standard that, often in those paradigms, will assert itself one way or another.

I wish the world agreed with your definition.

 
 
sojourner
 
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26 January 2016 19:15
 
icehorse - 26 January 2016 04:58 PM
Niclynn - 26 January 2016 02:32 PM
icehorse - 25 January 2016 06:52 PM

Niclynn,

The point is that many liberals have bought into the cultural- relativism meme. Once you buy into that, you have to look the other way if another culture is - for example - systemically misogynistic.

That’s not at all what relativism means, at least not most forms of it. In general, it’s more a statement that morality comes from people, not some Objective Set Of Rules (often posited as God, but not always). If anything, a relativist has more responsibility in regulating the morality of others, because they have no ‘fallback’ in terms of God or some universal standard that, often in those paradigms, will assert itself one way or another.

I wish the world agreed with your definition.


I think it’s also possible that you’re simply stereotyping people who don’t believe in totally objective morality. I think plenty of people do agree with some version of this.

 
 
icehorse
 
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26 January 2016 20:01
 
Niclynn - 26 January 2016 07:15 PM
icehorse - 26 January 2016 04:58 PM
Niclynn - 26 January 2016 02:32 PM
icehorse - 25 January 2016 06:52 PM

Niclynn,

The point is that many liberals have bought into the cultural- relativism meme. Once you buy into that, you have to look the other way if another culture is - for example - systemically misogynistic.

That’s not at all what relativism means, at least not most forms of it. In general, it’s more a statement that morality comes from people, not some Objective Set Of Rules (often posited as God, but not always). If anything, a relativist has more responsibility in regulating the morality of others, because they have no ‘fallback’ in terms of God or some universal standard that, often in those paradigms, will assert itself one way or another.

I wish the world agreed with your definition.

I think it’s also possible that you’re simply stereotyping people who don’t believe in totally objective morality. I think plenty of people do agree with some version of this.

Objective morality is not the same idea as cultural relativism… right?

 

 
 
sojourner
 
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27 January 2016 07:59
 
icehorse - 26 January 2016 08:01 PM

Objective morality is not the same idea as cultural relativism… right?


Not clear on what you mean by this question? At any rate, what I mean here by “objective morality” is some universal set of standards that are Inherently Right regardless of context (you can get into fuzzy areas with this with statements like “It’s always right to be as altruistic as possible while taking care of yourself and also taking context into consideration” - but this is generally not what people mean when they use the term informally, usually it’s more like “It is always wrong to steal, because it angers God or goes against the nature of the universe or… etc.) Cultural relativism - again, the colloquial definition - is just the belief that we should understand things like beliefs and morals in the context of the cultures in which they appear. As I understand it, I don’t think that has anything to do with there being an expectation that you have to support those beliefs. In some cases, actually, you might condemn something more strongly based on culture, as an act or gesture that is innocuous in one culture might signal ill intent in another. Or, you might disagree with a belief, but think that understanding the context in which it developed and why is crucial to effectively relaying your concerns to the people who hold it (FGM is a good example of this - studies have shown the most successful work in ending this practice have been when people work with local communities, provide information, and let the process unfold through the existing decision-making channels within those communities.)


The thing is, I think the “moral relativism” thing is often a barrier to understanding. In my anecdotal observation, people tend to levy this as an accusation when what is actually happening is the other party involved has very strong moral opinions, they’re just in disagreement. If there are actual relativists of the kind you hear about in Twitter yore, I doubt anyone knows about them because they are sitting chilling out in bean bag chairs not making statements about anything. To me, “relativist” has become code for “focusing on things other than the faults of groups we are at war with”. I think this is unfair, because: 1. The topic of military action is a separate issue - you may agree or disagree with it, but it has nothing to do with relativism. 2. “Not focusing enough” on something has nothing to do with supporting it. If this were the case, we’d all be in serious trouble, because there are thousands and thousands of problems in the world that we haven’t spoken out on in the recent past. No one person can be committed to addressing every ill in the world, but a lack of public condemnation doesn’t equal support.

 
 
June
 
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27 January 2016 08:49
 
Sven62 - 24 January 2016 10:51 AM

I don’t think we’re talking about the same guy.  I mean this guy: He just did a great interview with Gad Saad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/author/

Thank you for introducing Bill Warner.  I like how he practices intellectual aggressiveness while steering clear from emotional aggressiveness.  As a scientist he uses the scientific method, a content analytical approach,  when discussing Islam.  Impressive.  I thought the conversation between the two had an easy to listen to flow. 


I’d be interested in listening to a conversation about reform between Sam Harris and Bill Warner because both, as it stands, seem to have different perspectives.  Bill Warner sees reform as currently underway, practiced by the extremists.  Harris approach about reform lies in his hope of what the moderate or secular Muslim can do.  If that involves editing or changing the texts, I would agree with Warner.  Muslims believe the text is already perfect and complete as is.  The effort for reform from the moderates would require an unreasonable amount of mental acrobatics.  The argument that 51% contained within the Islamic texts are about the non-muslim, should indeed inspire conversation of how that makes Islam of a political nature.

 
 
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