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Where Sam gets it wrong

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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15 March 2016 19:25
 
eucaryote - 15 March 2016 01:29 PM

Shitty and violent describes your post pretty well. I think it also summarizes Harris’s opinions. Good job!

I guess the the enemy of your enemy is your friend even if they write shitty and violent posts…

 
 
Secular Humanist
 
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Secular Humanist
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15 March 2016 19:30
 
Niclynn - 15 March 2016 06:41 PM

Edited because I think I misread your point in the first paragraph - but I don’t understand what point you’re making. I mean, if someone said something racist to a black person - not saying Sam did but making a point - would you say “Yeah, well, what if they were black?!” How does that follow? They’re not, that’s the point.

As to critics of Islam, not really a topic I’m into, but we’re not talking about criticizing Islam in this thread, we’re talking about whether a specific comment was unintentionally insulting. I kinda get the idea you have a mental script of talking points regarding how you assume this conversation is going to unfold, based on prior talks with other people, and I feel like it doesn’t quite follow here.

This whole argument we’re having is basically you saying “Sam said something offensive” and me saying “No he didn’t.” My adding racial descriptors was a way to illustrate that but you clearly still think the tweet was offensive so forget the racial example I gave and just indulge me one more time: How could Sam have written his tweet so that it would have been supportive of Malala and lauded her bravery, while condemning the widespread misogyny rampant in many Muslim communities, all without being offensive or generalizing in your opinion. I’m just curious to know what that tweet would look like.

 
NL.
 
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NL.
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15 March 2016 22:26
 
Secular Humanist - 15 March 2016 07:30 PM

This whole argument we’re having is basically you saying “Sam said something offensive” and me saying “No he didn’t.”


Hmm. Well that is a very broad summary, although I suppose not technically incorrect (“The election debates - basically just different people saying my ideas are better than your ideas”. True, but slightly lacking in detail even by my standards.)

 

My adding racial descriptors was a way to illustrate that but you clearly still think the tweet was offensive


I don’t necessarily think it was offensive. I think possibly it was offensive, possibly it was just clueless. The latter I am sympathetic towards because: 1. Academic types are often kinda clueless, their neural resources are tied up in other areas - needed areas 2. I can be kinda clueless myself so obviously this is not an area where I want to promote harsh societal sanctions 3. It is not mutually exclusive to say that: a. A statement is insensitive but b. We’re all human and policing unintentional ‘insensitivity gaffes’ too much can create a walking-on-eggshells environment for everyone. I don’t think it should be a big deal for a well-intentioned person to say “Hey, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize it came across that way”.

 

so forget the racial example I gave and just indulge me one more time: How could Sam have written his tweet so that it would have been supportive of Malala and lauded her bravery, while condemning the widespread misogyny rampant in many Muslim communities, all without being offensive or generalizing in your opinion. I’m just curious to know what that tweet would look like.


How about replacing “Islam” with “the Taliban”. That seems like a pretty easy fix to me. Not a lot of people take offense at standing up to “the misogyny of the Taliban”.

 
 
eucaryote
 
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eucaryote
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15 March 2016 23:16
 
Secular Humanist - 15 March 2016 04:37 PM
eucaryote - 15 March 2016 01:49 PM

Much of what made it backhanded was that coming from Harris, it’s insincere. I’m afraid that the choices Harris has made in the past account for how we perceive him today. Sam can argue that he doesn’t deserve the criticism but that perception is reality, none the less…..words to the wise, I think.

I’d love for you to elaborate on this because it sounds like identity politics 101. It should absolutely not matter where the remarks are “coming from”. Also, as an aside, I don’t think you understood what the poster GAD was doing at all.

I thought I was clear. Given the totality of his remarks, Harris’s comments regarding Malala are duplicitous, disingenuous, two faced, self serving, etc.

 
 
eucaryote
 
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eucaryote
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15 March 2016 23:17
 
GAD - 15 March 2016 07:25 PM
eucaryote - 15 March 2016 01:29 PM

Shitty and violent describes your post pretty well. I think it also summarizes Harris’s opinions. Good job!

I guess the the enemy of your enemy is your friend even if they write shitty and violent posts…

Not so much.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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15 March 2016 23:44
 
eucaryote - 15 March 2016 11:17 PM
GAD - 15 March 2016 07:25 PM
eucaryote - 15 March 2016 01:29 PM

Shitty and violent describes your post pretty well. I think it also summarizes Harris’s opinions. Good job!

I guess the the enemy of your enemy is your friend even if they write shitty and violent posts…

Not so much.

No worries, at least now I won’t have to pull a Trump on Duke if someone asks if I know you.

 
 
eucaryote
 
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eucaryote
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16 March 2016 09:28
 
Secular Humanist - 15 March 2016 06:25 PM

Also, again, who are some prominent critics of Islam that you’d recommend other than Sam Harris? People who in your opinion, and I’m seriously not trying to be snarky here, offer a more nuanced critique of Islam than Sam?

I’d recommend any author that actually knows something about the subject. That’s not Harris. All we get from Harris is fear and prejudice. The part of the book that tells Nawaz’s life story is interesting, at least to hear once. The part where Harris reiterates his fear of Muslims for the umpteenth time is not.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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20 March 2016 08:52
 
eucaryote - 16 March 2016 09:28 AM
Secular Humanist - 15 March 2016 06:25 PM

Also, again, who are some prominent critics of Islam that you’d recommend other than Sam Harris? People who in your opinion, and I’m seriously not trying to be snarky here, offer a more nuanced critique of Islam than Sam?

I’d recommend any author that actually knows something about the subject. That’s not Harris. All we get from Harris is fear and prejudice. The part of the book that tells Nawaz’s life story is interesting, at least to hear once. The part where Harris reiterates his fear of Muslims for the umpteenth time is not.

Recommend one of these knowledgeable authors.

 
 
VeryHarrisy
 
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VeryHarrisy
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12 April 2016 05:23
 

I’m sure Sam is a perfectly knowledgeable author if your area of interest is repetitive dogerall. There isn’t much to be gained by buying into his brand of criticism and I would argue that there is a lot to lose in terms of perspective and engagement with the world. I quite literally meet dozens of muslims every week who love the US and what it has historically represented in the world. I meet people who are concerned about the growing anti-muslim views they hear coming out of our media. I urge everyone on this forum to engage more with the real muslim world instead of searching online for ways to close your minds.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 April 2016 08:36
 
VeryHarrisy - 12 April 2016 05:23 AM

I’m sure Sam is a perfectly knowledgeable author if your area of interest is repetitive dogerall. There isn’t much to be gained by buying into his brand of criticism and I would argue that there is a lot to lose in terms of perspective and engagement with the world. I quite literally meet dozens of muslims every week who love the US and what it has historically represented in the world. I meet people who are concerned about the growing anti-muslim views they hear coming out of our media. I urge everyone on this forum to engage more with the real muslim world instead of searching online for ways to close your minds.

Since we’re talking about an ideology with 1.6 members, can you say anything about broader statistics when Muslims immigrate to western countries? Can you speak to conditions in the parts of the world where the majority of Muslims live?

I’m happy to hear of Muslims who support western secularism, but it seems to me that your sample size isn’t meaningful.

 
 
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12 April 2016 13:13
 

Consider this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceGqB4raTZo
Saudi TV Host Nadine Al-Budair: The Terrorists Emerged from Our Schools and Universities

Since she is Saudi and not Sam Harris maybe this could be valid but it sounds similar to _everything_ he has said and written going on over ten years?

 
VeryHarrisy
 
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VeryHarrisy
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12 April 2016 15:50
 

Most of the polls are bullshit, get off your computer and out on the street. I doubt anyone you know has been harmed by Islamic organizations so what is the reason for your animus? Is it merely to satisfy your yerning to feel superior? The biggest reason Sam Harris is completely wrong, and most of his adherants on this site, is that he ignores history, politics, and personal experience in favor of media hype and polling. My sample size is as big as anyone’s who actually interacts with human beings rather than other people’s numbers and data.

 
VeryHarrisy
 
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VeryHarrisy
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12 April 2016 15:57
 

And yes I can speak to conditions of the world in places majority Muslim because I have lived in a few of those places. There aren’t many places that have been able to enjoy similar physical isolation and security of the United States, or been free from imperial influence in the last 100 years. If your perspective is so narrow as to ignore all those factors then I see why you would agree with Sam’s views on Muslims.

 
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12 April 2016 16:00
 
VeryHarrisy - 12 April 2016 03:50 PM

Most of the polls are bullshit, get off your computer and out on the street. I doubt anyone you know has been harmed by Islamic organizations so what is the reason for your animus? Is it merely to satisfy your yerning to feel superior? The biggest reason Sam Harris is completely wrong, and most of his adherants on this site, is that he ignores history, politics, and personal experience in favor of media hype and polling. My sample size is as big as anyone’s who actually interacts with human beings rather than other people’s numbers and data.

Maybe you could expand on this and educate “this site?”

 
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12 April 2016 16:02
 
VeryHarrisy - 12 April 2016 03:57 PM

...free from imperial influence in the last 100 years.

Could you define “imperial influence?”

 
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