Orlando shooting/fear of eternal punishment

 
kristina.i
 
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kristina.i
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17 June 2016 08:32
 

While reading about Orlando shooting and it’s supposed reasons it came to my mind that although much has been said about promise of Paradise as a factor in suicide attacks, I’ve not seen anything about the other side of the matter.

The threat of eternal punishment must be a very strong incentive to martyrdom. After all, in Islam, unlike in Christianity, it’s the only safe way to avoid eternity in hell. Imagine being a Muslim gay man believing in the Islamic doctrine about homosexuality. Martyrdom must seem to be the only way out of the situation.

[ Edited: 18 June 2016 06:20 by kristina.i]
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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17 June 2016 09:45
 

It seems unlikely that the Orlando shooter was very religious.
But this does seem to be a real issue for al’Qaida and ISIS fighters when confronting the all-female units of Kurdish fighters, since being a martyr doesn’t count if you are killed by a women (for some reason). It can also be an incentive to become a suicide bomber if fear your family is destined for hell: martyrs get a +1 (or whoever many there are in the close family) to take with them to heaven.

More important question is: if you bring your family with you to heaven - doesn’t it automatically become hell?

 
 
kristina.i
 
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kristina.i
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17 June 2016 10:41
 

I’m a bit skeptic about “not very religious” in the context of Muslims. It can be a very different thing than when it’s about Western Christians. He visited mosque three or four times a week.

If you are willing to die for your religion, i’d say you are pretty religious.

[ Edited: 17 June 2016 10:44 by kristina.i]
 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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17 June 2016 19:50
 

Kristina has a plausible point. One can be full of religiously-based self-loathing without being particularly religious. I know this from personal experience, and from observing it in several other people.

Besides, Mateen appears to have gone on a hadj in 2012. That is not the sort of thing a person who is attempting to put distance between himself and his religion would do.

 
 
kristina.i
 
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kristina.i
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18 June 2016 07:42
 

There has also been discussion of his mental health issues. His former wife has seemingly told he was “bipolar”. I don’t no if that’s reliable, but the bipolar disorder alone doesn’t make you go into a killing spree. There are millions of perfectly peaceful bipolars in the world (I’m one of them).

I think there are many very mentally unhealthy doctrines in Islam. For example you can’t be forgiven for your sins in your lifetime, unlike in Christian doctrine. As Ayaan Hirsi Ali has told, your sins and good deeds are written down and you only must wait for the last judgment. No wonder religious Muslims are so keen to perform rigorous rituals. To me it seems like a form of obsessive compulsive disorder.

It would be very interesting if somebody analysed the Islamic doctrines in terms of mental health.

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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18 June 2016 08:07
 
kristina.i - 17 June 2016 10:41 AM

I’m a bit skeptic about “not very religious” in the context of Muslims. It can be a very different thing than when it’s about Western Christians. He visited mosque three or four times a week.

If you are willing to die for your religion, i’d say you are pretty religious.


Regardless of how religious someone is, they’re socialized by their culture. The “not very religious” argument misunderestimates the power of socialization by mistakenly categorizing a bit of socialization as a bit of religion just because it’s religiously themed. If these were completely separate categories though, we wouldn’t have very many of the religious issues we’re on about in here. You don’t have to be very religious at all to believe very strongly in some religious ideas. In fact it often seems that if you internalize a fearful type of notion like Hell but only through the fog of ignorance because you don’t also get the how to avoid it part so much (doesn’t matter that it’s all bullshit—it’s about beliefs, not science) then such a fear can fester in a feedback loop of anxiety and ignorance and powerlessness and become all the worse for it.

 
 
kristina.i
 
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kristina.i
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18 June 2016 08:40
 

As far as I understand, religion is a part of a culture and in case of Islam it’s a very essential part. If a norm system you are socialized in comes from the religion, it is the part of the culture we call “religion”. What else could it be?

Take for example the Sharia. In Islamic countries it’s a part of the culture we call “law” and it’s the part we call “social mores” but it’s also “religion”.

Re: “In fact it often seems that if you internalize a fearful type of notion like Hell but only through the fog of ignorance because you don’t also get the how to avoid it”

I don’t find it plausible you wouldn’t go to your imam or some suitable web sites and ask if you were afraid of going to Hell if you already didn’t know the way to avoid it. It’s possible that was the very way he “self-radicalized”.

[ Edited: 18 June 2016 08:54 by kristina.i]
 
SkepticX
 
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18 June 2016 09:02
 

That’s kinda what I just said—same basic sentiment anyway ... sans the specifics, which are much more speculative anyway.

 
 
Celal
 
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Celal
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18 June 2016 10:44
 
Twissel - 17 June 2016 09:45 AM

It seems unlikely that the Orlando shooter was very religious.
But this does seem to be a real issue for al’Qaida and ISIS fighters when confronting the all-female units of Kurdish fighters, since being a martyr doesn’t count if you are killed by a women (for some reason). It can also be an incentive to become a suicide bomber if fear your family is destined for hell: martyrs get a +1 (or whoever many there are in the close family) to take with them to heaven.

More important question is: if you bring your family with you to heaven - doesn’t it automatically become hell?

Do you understand what being religious is, in Islam?  Based on the text that follows which you wrote, you have no comprehension of it.