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The Klein Bottle

 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  17529
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
17 November 2018 11:00
 
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 10:20 AM
GAD - 17 November 2018 09:18 AM
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 08:31 AM

...
There is no effective or fair way to weight a system for elections, or to limit the electorate by some kind of criteria.  It would be arrogant to think that a particular level of education alone ensures better political decisions.  It is not just a matter of voting according to intellect versus emotion – it also concerns ethics, integrity and an understanding of human nature – something the more highly educated do not have a monopoly on.

However, as has been noted by many, including Thomas Jefferson, “...whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government…”.  So the goal, in my opinion, should be to ensure that ALL citizens receive the minimum of a quality high school education.  Where they are taught world history (not just through a narrow American lens), civic responsibility (including a history of all those who fought and died for the right to vote), politics, an ability to question and think critically, etc.

Then never whine about anything again because you’ve got the world you want.

Not even close.  There’s a myriad of data out there that show that the U.S. lags behind in regards to quality of public school education.

We got what we voted for, and as the Idiocracy grows we’ll get even more, so don’t you worry about us.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3297
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
17 November 2018 11:47
 
GAD - 17 November 2018 11:00 AM
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 10:20 AM
GAD - 17 November 2018 09:18 AM
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 08:31 AM

...
There is no effective or fair way to weight a system for elections, or to limit the electorate by some kind of criteria.  It would be arrogant to think that a particular level of education alone ensures better political decisions.  It is not just a matter of voting according to intellect versus emotion – it also concerns ethics, integrity and an understanding of human nature – something the more highly educated do not have a monopoly on.

However, as has been noted by many, including Thomas Jefferson, “...whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government…”.  So the goal, in my opinion, should be to ensure that ALL citizens receive the minimum of a quality high school education.  Where they are taught world history (not just through a narrow American lens), civic responsibility (including a history of all those who fought and died for the right to vote), politics, an ability to question and think critically, etc.

Then never whine about anything again because you’ve got the world you want.

Not even close.  There’s a myriad of data out there that show that the U.S. lags behind in regards to quality of public school education.

We got what we voted for, and as the Idiocracy grows we’ll get even more, so don’t you worry about us.

Can’t help but worry about you all.

And as our former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau once said:
Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.

 

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  17529
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
17 November 2018 12:12
 
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 11:47 AM
GAD - 17 November 2018 11:00 AM
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 10:20 AM
GAD - 17 November 2018 09:18 AM
Jan_CAN - 17 November 2018 08:31 AM

...
There is no effective or fair way to weight a system for elections, or to limit the electorate by some kind of criteria.  It would be arrogant to think that a particular level of education alone ensures better political decisions.  It is not just a matter of voting according to intellect versus emotion – it also concerns ethics, integrity and an understanding of human nature – something the more highly educated do not have a monopoly on.

However, as has been noted by many, including Thomas Jefferson, “...whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government…”.  So the goal, in my opinion, should be to ensure that ALL citizens receive the minimum of a quality high school education.  Where they are taught world history (not just through a narrow American lens), civic responsibility (including a history of all those who fought and died for the right to vote), politics, an ability to question and think critically, etc.

Then never whine about anything again because you’ve got the world you want.

Not even close.  There’s a myriad of data out there that show that the U.S. lags behind in regards to quality of public school education.

We got what we voted for, and as the Idiocracy grows we’ll get even more, so don’t you worry about us.

Can’t help but worry about you all.

And as our former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau once said:
Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.

but you want the beast stupid because you think you can get it to do stupid pet tricks for you but when it doesn’t you get upset and say it’s stupid, that’s the problem with circular reasoning based on your feelings. 

 

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
Total Posts:  8581
Joined  20-02-2006
 
 
 
18 November 2018 11:41
 
GAD - 17 November 2018 11:00 AM

We got what we voted for, and as the Idiocracy grows we’ll get even more, so don’t you worry about us.

Angst in a red state and Hell’s Backbone Grill?  https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2018/07/29/commentary-trump-has/

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
Total Posts:  6717
Joined  08-12-2006
 
 
 
27 November 2018 07:52
 
GAD - 15 November 2018 09:30 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 15 November 2018 08:56 PM
GAD - 15 November 2018 06:29 PM
EN - 15 November 2018 06:10 PM
GAD - 15 November 2018 06:07 PM
LadyJane - 15 November 2018 02:14 PM

Supposedly, only thirty percent of American Millennials voted in the mid term election.  Where were the other seventy percent?  They have the chance to exact the change they’re looking for and take the reins directing their own future interests.  They did not.  They’re not in the habit of making decisions and apparently don’t want to accept the responsibility.  Everyone has to grow up sooner or later.  Forcing them to stand on their own would be doing them a favour.  I’m on board with no votey no laundry.

Obviously you think they would have voted for what you want, but voting has led to all the issues you think more voting resolve, and more voting could just as well make things worse since people vote with feelings not reason.

So what would you do if you were king of the world?

Same idea I posted long ago on a point system and again after I served on a jury and saw how really ignorant jury’s are, invoke a program of certification that requires knowledge and understanding of the law and your duty. Could be tiered votes of different groups weighed together with a point system, dumbass = 1p, pro =2-3, collage =2-4p, military =1p, commuity leader/volunteer = xp etc.

Aren’t you making the same assumption here? That people with higher scores will vote for the things you want? (Does spelling factor into your point system?)

(PS, the Chinese have something along the lines of what you’re describing, although it doesn’t affect their votes: China has started ranking citizens with a creepy ‘social credit’ system — here’s what you can do wrong, and the embarrassing, demeaning ways they can punish you)

I am making some assumptions, like that being knowledgeable, having an understanding of the issues and being a bigger participate in societal issues leads to better reasoning and outcomes. Are you arguing that knowledge and understanding would not lead to better voting? They may not vote exactly like me but that is part of what voting is for. And as usual I include myself, I was not knowledgeable nor understood the law and my role when I was on the jury and am still sickened by myself and other people on the jury making shit up to come to a decision.

Well, I changed my mind. You’re right and I was wrong. Not everyone should be allowed to vote.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  17529
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2018 08:11
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 27 November 2018 07:52 AM
GAD - 15 November 2018 09:30 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 15 November 2018 08:56 PM
GAD - 15 November 2018 06:29 PM
EN - 15 November 2018 06:10 PM
GAD - 15 November 2018 06:07 PM
LadyJane - 15 November 2018 02:14 PM

Supposedly, only thirty percent of American Millennials voted in the mid term election.  Where were the other seventy percent?  They have the chance to exact the change they’re looking for and take the reins directing their own future interests.  They did not.  They’re not in the habit of making decisions and apparently don’t want to accept the responsibility.  Everyone has to grow up sooner or later.  Forcing them to stand on their own would be doing them a favour.  I’m on board with no votey no laundry.

Obviously you think they would have voted for what you want, but voting has led to all the issues you think more voting resolve, and more voting could just as well make things worse since people vote with feelings not reason.

So what would you do if you were king of the world?

Same idea I posted long ago on a point system and again after I served on a jury and saw how really ignorant jury’s are, invoke a program of certification that requires knowledge and understanding of the law and your duty. Could be tiered votes of different groups weighed together with a point system, dumbass = 1p, pro =2-3, collage =2-4p, military =1p, commuity leader/volunteer = xp etc.

Aren’t you making the same assumption here? That people with higher scores will vote for the things you want? (Does spelling factor into your point system?)

(PS, the Chinese have something along the lines of what you’re describing, although it doesn’t affect their votes: China has started ranking citizens with a creepy ‘social credit’ system — here’s what you can do wrong, and the embarrassing, demeaning ways they can punish you)

I am making some assumptions, like that being knowledgeable, having an understanding of the issues and being a bigger participate in societal issues leads to better reasoning and outcomes. Are you arguing that knowledge and understanding would not lead to better voting? They may not vote exactly like me but that is part of what voting is for. And as usual I include myself, I was not knowledgeable nor understood the law and my role when I was on the jury and am still sickened by myself and other people on the jury making shit up to come to a decision.

Well, I changed my mind. You’re right and I was wrong. Not everyone should be allowed to vote.

That is a problem to me, people are told voting is so important and then told to vote on shit they have no understanding of. Yet the forum consensus was that required knowledge and understanding was unnecessary or even a good thing for voters. Thinking about that I take it as fear of an elitist party of knowledgeable voters who they think they might not be part of and/or exclude the poor X they want to save and/or who would vote with reason over feelings. To put it another way they want idiots voting because then there is a chance for their non-reasonable ideas to win. And that is why they should never complain about Trump getting voted in because that is the the winning lottery vote process that they fought for.

 
 
 
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EN
Total Posts:  21484
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
27 November 2018 09:49
 

Democracy is democracy. If we have idiots, we get the government we deserve. It’s better than oligarchs or elitists making the decision. We just need to educate so that the informed voters outnumber the idiots.  I think we can do that.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  17529
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
27 November 2018 09:55
 
EN - 27 November 2018 09:49 AM

Democracy is democracy. If we have idiots, we get the government we deserve. It’s better than oligarchs or elitists making the decision. We just need to educate so that the informed voters outnumber the idiots.  I think we can do that.

You would have to change something to change anything and no one wants to do that.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3297
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
28 November 2018 05:47
 

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

 
 
 
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EN
Total Posts:  21484
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
28 November 2018 07:04
 
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 05:47 AM

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

Deck the halls with boughs of holly, falalalalalalala
Tis’ the season to be jolly, falalalalalalala

Just have a drink and enjoy yourself.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3297
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
28 November 2018 07:40
 
EN - 28 November 2018 07:04 AM
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 05:47 AM

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

Deck the halls with boughs of holly, falalalalalalala
Tis’ the season to be jolly, falalalalalalala

Just have a drink and enjoy yourself.

Yup, I may have to take up drinking.
I used to thoroughly enjoy Christmas, but for a number of years now there’s been the stress without the ‘jolly’.  Can’t seem to get that ol’ feeling back.
Could you bottle some of that zest for life you have and send me some?

 

 
 
 
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EN
Total Posts:  21484
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
28 November 2018 10:51
 
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 07:40 AM
EN - 28 November 2018 07:04 AM
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 05:47 AM

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

Deck the halls with boughs of holly, falalalalalalala
Tis’ the season to be jolly, falalalalalalala

Just have a drink and enjoy yourself.

Yup, I may have to take up drinking.
I used to thoroughly enjoy Christmas, but for a number of years now there’s been the stress without the ‘jolly’.  Can’t seem to get that ol’ feeling back.
Could you bottle some of that zest for life you have and send me some?

You need more sunshine. I suggest Hawaii or the Caribbean.

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
Total Posts:  8581
Joined  20-02-2006
 
 
 
28 November 2018 10:57
 
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 07:40 AM
EN - 28 November 2018 07:04 AM
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 05:47 AM

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

Deck the halls with boughs of holly, falalalalalalala
Tis’ the season to be jolly, falalalalalalala

Just have a drink and enjoy yourself.

Yup, I may have to take up drinking.
I used to thoroughly enjoy Christmas, but for a number of years now there’s been the stress without the ‘jolly’.  Can’t seem to get that ol’ feeling back.
Could you bottle some of that zest for life you have and send me some?

Christmas shopping ‘zest for life’:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol6KWGMskCw

I always thought of Thoreau as being a teetotaler but yesterday found this:  “It was his habit to stop by Orchard House on his way out of town to sample Alcott’s excellent cider.”  (Bronson Alcott - Louisa May’s father)  “He loved to visit Alcott’s study, to warm himself by its fire, his Yankee drawl contending with the mute busts of Plato and Socrates that gazed from their shelves.  The two friends discussed gardening, philosophy, and especially this season, politics.  On November 6, Alcott noted in his journal, he had ventured to the “Town House and cast my vote for Lincoln, and the Republican conventions . . . the first vote I have cast for a president.”  Thoreau had done the same, and later that evening the two had cheered the Republican’s improbable victory.”  (quoted from the book, ‘THE BOOK THAT CHANGED AMERICA’ by Randall Fuller.  [the book being Darwin’s - ‘On The Origin of Species’]

“A compelling portrait of a unique moment in American history when the ideas of Charles Darwin reshaped American notions about nature, religion, science and race.”

“A lively and informative history.” – The New York Times Book Review

 

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3297
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
28 November 2018 11:42
 
EN - 28 November 2018 10:51 AM
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 07:40 AM
EN - 28 November 2018 07:04 AM
Jan_CAN - 28 November 2018 05:47 AM

I’m already sick of all the Christmas hype and it’s not even December yet.
Bah humbug!

Deck the halls with boughs of holly, falalalalalalala
Tis’ the season to be jolly, falalalalalalala

Just have a drink and enjoy yourself.

Yup, I may have to take up drinking.
I used to thoroughly enjoy Christmas, but for a number of years now there’s been the stress without the ‘jolly’.  Can’t seem to get that ol’ feeling back.
Could you bottle some of that zest for life you have and send me some?

You need more sunshine. I suggest Hawaii or the Caribbean.

You could be right, Bruce.  I’ve considered taking a trip south at this time of year, but it would have to be after Christmas as family members wouldn’t be too happy if I was away.

They even have a name for the ‘winter blues’ now – SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder).  I actually don’t mind winter though, in general.  But the holidays have their pressures – trying to make a happy Christmas for everyone, and the expectations we put on ourselves.

 

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3297
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
28 November 2018 11:50
 
unsmoked - 28 November 2018 10:57 AM

Christmas shopping ‘zest for life’:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol6KWGMskCw

I always thought of Thoreau as being a teetotaler but yesterday found this:  “It was his habit to stop by Orchard House on his way out of town to sample Alcott’s excellent cider.”  (Bronson Alcott - Louisa May’s father)  “He loved to visit Alcott’s study, to warm himself by its fire, his Yankee drawl contending with the mute busts of Plato and Socrates that gazed from their shelves.  The two friends discussed gardening, philosophy, and especially this season, politics.  On November 6, Alcott noted in his journal, he had ventured to the “Town House and cast my vote for Lincoln, and the Republican conventions . . . the first vote I have cast for a president.”  Thoreau had done the same, and later that evening the two had cheered the Republican’s improbable victory.”  (quoted from the book, ‘THE BOOK THAT CHANGED AMERICA’ by Randall Fuller.  [the book being Darwin’s - ‘On The Origin of Species’]

“A compelling portrait of a unique moment in American history when the ideas of Charles Darwin reshaped American notions about nature, religion, science and race.”

“A lively and informative history.” – The New York Times Book Review

Unsmoked, that video demonstrates quite well some of what’s wrong.  I don’t even care for shopping at the best of times and completely avoid rushes and lineups, regardless of any savings that could be had.  Stores here in Canada have been promoting and holding sales days to compete with those in the U.S. in an attempt to keep shoppers here.  I’ve been shopping online more, and then feel guilty for giving my money to Amazon rather than supporting local stores.

I’m not a teetotaler per se and perhaps like Thoreau could use a bit of ‘cheer’ at this time.

 

 
 
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