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The Klein Bottle

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  2978
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
09 February 2019 17:36
 
Cheshire Cat - 09 February 2019 05:29 PM

Jan, I don’t know if you noticed it or not, but Nhoj put the post in question under the “Hall of Holy Grails” heading.

Good call, I’d say.

Thanks, CC.  Yes, good call.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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09 February 2019 17:55
 
Jb8989 - 09 February 2019 06:14 AM
Skipshot - 08 February 2019 05:35 PM
Jb8989 - 08 February 2019 03:05 PM

Yeah but come on man, it’s dumb as fuck (A). (B) it’s racist as shit. And (C) you need to get out more. Intelligence in the G sense isn’t all it’s cracked up to be when you consider we’re tangential to apes.

Busted!

Lol pretty much, but not quite. I put this here. I used the Klein as my subconscious spill over. Because though I value free speech, I don’t like defending racism…unless it’s toward people not as handsome as I am. I verbally abuse ugly people in public.

I forgot about that thread, mainly because dealing with racists is a waste of my time.  If someone wants to value someone by their looks then they are too stupid to burn.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 February 2019 18:56
 
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 05:16 PM

The forum’s new racist-in-residence is like the energizer bunny – he just keeps on going ... and going ... and going.  (He even envisions a possible future not unlike Charles Manson’s of helter skelter.)  I wonder if there is a gene or allele or whatever that predisposes someone to being unable to see the full humanity in all of their fellow humans.

White supremacists have been evolving, but not for the better; they have not softened their views but have changed their tactics.  Now, instead of using the ‘n’ word and the like, they hide the same philosophies as ever behind nicer manners and distorted scientific and social/political theories.  But these are just as ugly as they always were and they shouldn’t be given any leeway.  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how well it’s expressed.

Except when it is bullshit you agree with, then you love to coo about how well expressed as if that means it’s true.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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09 February 2019 19:28
 
GAD - 09 February 2019 06:56 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 05:16 PM

The forum’s new racist-in-residence is like the energizer bunny – he just keeps on going ... and going ... and going.  (He even envisions a possible future not unlike Charles Manson’s of helter skelter.)  I wonder if there is a gene or allele or whatever that predisposes someone to being unable to see the full humanity in all of their fellow humans.

White supremacists have been evolving, but not for the better; they have not softened their views but have changed their tactics.  Now, instead of using the ‘n’ word and the like, they hide the same philosophies as ever behind nicer manners and distorted scientific and social/political theories.  But these are just as ugly as they always were and they shouldn’t be given any leeway.  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how well it’s expressed.

Except when it is bullshit you agree with, then you love to coo about how well expressed as if that means it’s true.

Since we’re already in The Klein Bottle anyway ... GAD, you can really be an obnoxious pain in the ass.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 February 2019 19:35
 
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 07:28 PM
GAD - 09 February 2019 06:56 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 05:16 PM

The forum’s new racist-in-residence is like the energizer bunny – he just keeps on going ... and going ... and going.  (He even envisions a possible future not unlike Charles Manson’s of helter skelter.)  I wonder if there is a gene or allele or whatever that predisposes someone to being unable to see the full humanity in all of their fellow humans.

White supremacists have been evolving, but not for the better; they have not softened their views but have changed their tactics.  Now, instead of using the ‘n’ word and the like, they hide the same philosophies as ever behind nicer manners and distorted scientific and social/political theories.  But these are just as ugly as they always were and they shouldn’t be given any leeway.  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how well it’s expressed.

Except when it is bullshit you agree with, then you love to coo about how well expressed as if that means it’s true.

Since we’re already in The Klein Bottle anyway ... GAD, you can really be an obnoxious pain in the ass.

I know. I call you on your bullshit instead of hugging you and telling you how wonderful you are for it.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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09 February 2019 19:44
 
GAD - 09 February 2019 07:35 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 07:28 PM
GAD - 09 February 2019 06:56 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 05:16 PM

The forum’s new racist-in-residence is like the energizer bunny – he just keeps on going ... and going ... and going.  (He even envisions a possible future not unlike Charles Manson’s of helter skelter.)  I wonder if there is a gene or allele or whatever that predisposes someone to being unable to see the full humanity in all of their fellow humans.

White supremacists have been evolving, but not for the better; they have not softened their views but have changed their tactics.  Now, instead of using the ‘n’ word and the like, they hide the same philosophies as ever behind nicer manners and distorted scientific and social/political theories.  But these are just as ugly as they always were and they shouldn’t be given any leeway.  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how well it’s expressed.

Except when it is bullshit you agree with, then you love to coo about how well expressed as if that means it’s true.

Since we’re already in The Klein Bottle anyway ... GAD, you can really be an obnoxious pain in the ass.

I know. I call you on your bullshit instead of hugging you and telling you how wonderful you are for it.

Ahh shucks ... just when I was wanting a big hug.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 February 2019 19:59
 
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 07:44 PM
GAD - 09 February 2019 07:35 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 07:28 PM
GAD - 09 February 2019 06:56 PM
Jan_CAN - 09 February 2019 05:16 PM

The forum’s new racist-in-residence is like the energizer bunny – he just keeps on going ... and going ... and going.  (He even envisions a possible future not unlike Charles Manson’s of helter skelter.)  I wonder if there is a gene or allele or whatever that predisposes someone to being unable to see the full humanity in all of their fellow humans.

White supremacists have been evolving, but not for the better; they have not softened their views but have changed their tactics.  Now, instead of using the ‘n’ word and the like, they hide the same philosophies as ever behind nicer manners and distorted scientific and social/political theories.  But these are just as ugly as they always were and they shouldn’t be given any leeway.  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how well it’s expressed.

Except when it is bullshit you agree with, then you love to coo about how well expressed as if that means it’s true.

Since we’re already in The Klein Bottle anyway ... GAD, you can really be an obnoxious pain in the ass.

I know. I call you on your bullshit instead of hugging you and telling you how wonderful you are for it.

Ahh shucks ... just when I was wanting a big hug.

I call my kids on their bullshit and then we hug, so bring it on in!

 

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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06 March 2019 17:23
 
TwoSeven1 - 06 March 2019 04:47 PM
burt - 06 March 2019 04:44 PM

I see no reason to continue exchanging anything with this guy, he is a committed fundamentalist creationist trying to use some sort of Socratic negative dialectic. He essentially never says anything about his own beliefs, simply offers up the same tired old creationist stupidities. He doen’t have he scientific or philosophical background to carry on an intelligent conversation so why bother responding. I’m out of here.

Thank you for exiting the conversation.

Fuck you, too.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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18 March 2019 15:45
 

Hey Jan, I numbered your points so I could respond point by point.

Jan_CAN - 18 March 2019 12:21 PM

[To icehorse]

1 - A disputed poll cannot be the basis for how people should be treated. 
2 - Anyone caring about relevant statistics should be paying heed to those that show the greater danger in the west is from the alt-right and white supremacy.  Idealogy running rampant in American society.

3 - ALL people should be treated as individuals, regardless of whether you consider them to be “statistically significant”.

4 - You have repeatedly insinuated that those whose opinions differ from yours are less than honest; this surpasses rudeness and is offensive.

5 - You claim to value freedom and democracy, but it doesn’t even register in your gut that 50 PEOPLE HAVE JUST BEEN MURDERED while doing nothing more than trying to practise their right to worship in peace, a right protected in all democracies.

1 - There are many such polls that come to similar conclusions. You can look up recent polls of Muslims living in the UK and their thoughts concerning having Sharia by a part of the UK’s legal system.

2 - I would agree that white supremacists are a big problem, I never said otherwise.

3 - I might be reading you wrong, but you seem to be lumping together what’s true about a person’s biology with what’s true about their ideas. Being a Muslim is just an idea, and (in the West at least), a Muslim is free to change their mind about following Islam. This is COMPLETELY different than - for instance - whether a person is from Pakistan - an attribute about which a person has no control. So criticizing Islam is acceptable but criticizing Pakistanis is not. Of course we can discuss groups of people fairly when we’re discussing the ideas they themselves declare. You just did it yourself when you mentioned white supremacists.

4 - Maybe you think Islam is a Religion of Peace. I think you’re blinded by some sense of goodwill or compassion or some such. The evidence is overwhelmingly clear that Islam is a violent, totalitarian ideology. Why people in the west are in denial of that is very dangerous, so I don’t care if you think it’s rude, I think anyone who declares that Islam is a religion of peace is promoting a very dangerous, perhaps world-ending misrepresentation.

5 - You don’t know what I think about those 50 people because I haven’t told you. But what I have said in different ways over and over on this forum is that we should be looking at the big picture. I think that the fate of the Yazidis and the Kurds and the Coptics is more important than these 50 people. I think that the fate of tens of thousands of girls undergoing FGM is far more important than these 50 people. This doesn’t mean I don’t care about the 50.

So once again, I took an unpopular stance in this thread because I think that instead of wringing our hands, we should be seeing and trying to solve the bigger problem.

 
 
 
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EN
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18 March 2019 16:08
 

Killing 50 of them while worshipping isn’t going to solve anything.  Standing in solidarity with the survivors does help because it binds them more to the community.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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18 March 2019 18:09
 

Muslims kills 50/500 people everyday, yet Islam is good and wonderful and the bad stuff is just a few bad people who aren’t real Muslims. Then a white kills 50 Muslims, so why aren’t white people good and wonderful and he is just one asshole who isn’t a real white?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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18 March 2019 18:31
 
icehorse - 18 March 2019 03:45 PM

Hey Jan, I numbered your points so I could respond point by point.

Jan_CAN - 18 March 2019 12:21 PM

[To icehorse]

1 - A disputed poll cannot be the basis for how people should be treated. 
2 - Anyone caring about relevant statistics should be paying heed to those that show the greater danger in the west is from the alt-right and white supremacy.  Idealogy running rampant in American society.

3 - ALL people should be treated as individuals, regardless of whether you consider them to be “statistically significant”.

4 - You have repeatedly insinuated that those whose opinions differ from yours are less than honest; this surpasses rudeness and is offensive.

5 - You claim to value freedom and democracy, but it doesn’t even register in your gut that 50 PEOPLE HAVE JUST BEEN MURDERED while doing nothing more than trying to practise their right to worship in peace, a right protected in all democracies.

1 - There are many such polls that come to similar conclusions. You can look up recent polls of Muslims living in the UK and their thoughts concerning having Sharia by a part of the UK’s legal system.

2 - I would agree that white supremacists are a big problem, I never said otherwise.

3 - I might be reading you wrong, but you seem to be lumping together what’s true about a person’s biology with what’s true about their ideas. Being a Muslim is just an idea, and (in the West at least), a Muslim is free to change their mind about following Islam. This is COMPLETELY different than - for instance - whether a person is from Pakistan - an attribute about which a person has no control. So criticizing Islam is acceptable but criticizing Pakistanis is not. Of course we can discuss groups of people fairly when we’re discussing the ideas they themselves declare. You just did it yourself when you mentioned white supremacists.

4 - Maybe you think Islam is a Religion of Peace. I think you’re blinded by some sense of goodwill or compassion or some such. The evidence is overwhelmingly clear that Islam is a violent, totalitarian ideology. Why people in the west are in denial of that is very dangerous, so I don’t care if you think it’s rude, I think anyone who declares that Islam is a religion of peace is promoting a very dangerous, perhaps world-ending misrepresentation.

5 - You don’t know what I think about those 50 people because I haven’t told you. But what I have said in different ways over and over on this forum is that we should be looking at the big picture. I think that the fate of the Yazidis and the Kurds and the Coptics is more important than these 50 people. I think that the fate of tens of thousands of girls undergoing FGM is far more important than these 50 people. This doesn’t mean I don’t care about the 50.

So once again, I took an unpopular stance in this thread because I think that instead of wringing our hands, we should be seeing and trying to solve the bigger problem.

I have responded point-by-point in return.

1 – Polls don’t show the complexity of people’s feelings and beliefs and the very definition of what is meant by ‘Sharia’ varies amongst Muslims.

2 – On a thread about a white supremacist’s murder of defenseless Muslims, one would expect condemnation of the murderer’s beliefs, not the victims.

3 – I’m not lumping anything together and understand perfectly well the distinction between criticizing an idea and criticizing a people.  I think it is you that have difficulty with these distinctions.  You don’t seem to understand and recognize how contradictory people can be – that a Muslim can be devout, hold views that are foreign to us, and still be a kind and decent person.  You often describe Islam as misogynistic which undoubtedly it is; however, you don’t acknowledge the prevalence of educated, outspoken, accomplished Muslim women and the fact that they are more able to be so in our countries.

4 – I don’t think any religion is a ‘Religion of Peace’; I actually think the world would be more peaceful without any orthodox religion.  I am fully aware that radical Islam can be violent; you seem to have ignored the fact that I have lost someone I loved by Islamic terrorism.  To say that I might be blinded by a sense of goodwill is far from true; it has been an intense struggle to keep from fearing all that is Islam.  But the fact remains that we cannot let fear and hate control us or let it cause us to prejudge anyone, no matter their religion.  (My comment about rudeness was in regards to your impugning the honesty of others here.)

5 – Your big picture takes a very narrow view.  It ignores the complexity of the issues, the complexity of people, and does not give the suffering of these 50 individuals what it’s due.  There is something very wrong if we can’t feel the same empathy for anyone who suffers.

I know you see yourself as a defender of certain values, but the bigger problem is even bigger than a conflict with one particular religion.  It is the ugly side of human nature that keeps dividing us from each other and our only hope for peace is to find some way to overcome these tendencies.  The love and compassion that brings people together after such tragedies as the one in New Zealand shows how united people can be.  Which was what I was looking for on the thread that you derailed.

[ Edited: 18 March 2019 18:36 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
18 March 2019 19:00
 

Hey Jan,

1 - You mention different takes on Sharia. You are correct. But at the core they all promote the values we deplore.
2 - As I said, I’m wired to look for solutions.
3 - So should we make the same analysis when we discuss white supremacists?
4 - I’m not letting fear and hate run anything, I’m supporting universal human rights.
5 - You cannot know about my empathy because I haven’t told you.

I don’t want people to be divided. ISLAM is a huge force in keeping people divided, that’s why I attack it. I just reread the first 5 pages or so of the Quran. It is primarily aimed at dividing Muslims from non-Muslims.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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18 March 2019 19:15
 
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:00 PM

Hey Jan,

1 - You mention different takes on Sharia. You are correct. But at the core they all promote the values we deplore.
2 - As I said, I’m wired to look for solutions.
3 - So should we make the same analysis when we discuss white supremacists?
4 - I’m not letting fear and hate run anything, I’m supporting universal human rights.
5 - You cannot know about my empathy because I haven’t told you.

I don’t want people to be divided. ISLAM is a huge force in keeping people divided, that’s why I attack it. I just reread the first 5 pages or so of the Quran. It is primarily aimed at dividing Muslims from non-Muslims.

Instead of reading the Quran, I expect you’d learn more if you went out and had a coffee or watched a game with a Muslim.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7333
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
18 March 2019 19:37
 
Jan_CAN - 18 March 2019 07:15 PM
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:00 PM

Hey Jan,

1 - You mention different takes on Sharia. You are correct. But at the core they all promote the values we deplore.
2 - As I said, I’m wired to look for solutions.
3 - So should we make the same analysis when we discuss white supremacists?
4 - I’m not letting fear and hate run anything, I’m supporting universal human rights.
5 - You cannot know about my empathy because I haven’t told you.

I don’t want people to be divided. ISLAM is a huge force in keeping people divided, that’s why I attack it. I just reread the first 5 pages or so of the Quran. It is primarily aimed at dividing Muslims from non-Muslims.

Instead of reading the Quran, I expect you’d learn more if you went out and had a coffee or watched a game with a Muslim.

This is a world wide issue involving 1.8 billion people. We need statistics and large polls to learn about the situation. Individual anecdotes are mostly meaningless.

And for f#cks sake - how many times have I told you that I have Muslim friends????

 
 
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