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The Klein Bottle

 
burt
 
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burt
Total Posts:  15914
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
18 March 2019 20:31
 
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:37 PM
Jan_CAN - 18 March 2019 07:15 PM
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:00 PM

Hey Jan,

1 - You mention different takes on Sharia. You are correct. But at the core they all promote the values we deplore.
2 - As I said, I’m wired to look for solutions.
3 - So should we make the same analysis when we discuss white supremacists?
4 - I’m not letting fear and hate run anything, I’m supporting universal human rights.
5 - You cannot know about my empathy because I haven’t told you.

I don’t want people to be divided. ISLAM is a huge force in keeping people divided, that’s why I attack it. I just reread the first 5 pages or so of the Quran. It is primarily aimed at dividing Muslims from non-Muslims.

Instead of reading the Quran, I expect you’d learn more if you went out and had a coffee or watched a game with a Muslim.

This is a world wide issue involving 1.8 billion people. We need statistics and large polls to learn about the situation. Individual anecdotes are mostly meaningless.

And for f#cks sake - how many times have I told you that I have Muslim friends????

Have you shared your opinion about Islam with them?

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
Total Posts:  6423
Joined  22-02-2005
 
 
 
19 March 2019 02:21
 

Mr. Horse:
From past discussions you should know that I think your perspective is a useful one.

Actually, it is the useful one, it is not mine or belong to me any more than the solar system belongs to Copernicus, and it is challenging yours. It made short work of mine. Trioon would challenge your affection for parsimony or, pressure-compressed perceptions. What about folks who are larger than your perception of them? As The Boss might say, it is matter of bandwidth.

What I don’t think we can continue to do is to support the meme that “Islam is a religion of Peace”.

We should not be supporting memes at all except as slogans for breakfast cereal. Memes illuminate the erosion of narrative ability in the general public. Any expression that is more than a single measure of attention will not be heard.

So I don’t have a plan to help Muslims reform their faith, but I’m sure whatever plan we come up with should NOT include lying about the faith’s fundamental characteristics.

What about the plan they already have? Islam reforms their perception and grows narrative ability here. we could have been an inspiration in showing where the all the plans lead but we’ve probably blown the opportunity. They often say that we have applied too tiny of a perception to them.

This admin is asking you to stay off other patrons threads on the subject of Islam and Muslims and stick to your own. Considering the way they play out, we must treat them as a thread hijacking. This forum must be shared. Righteous causes of any kind will not override civility or justify repetition. All that should mean is recognizing when an opportunity to post is best not taken. It means taking in a bigger picture, which is also my advice on the subject of Islam.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
19 March 2019 15:52
 
burt - 18 March 2019 08:31 PM
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:37 PM
Jan_CAN - 18 March 2019 07:15 PM
icehorse - 18 March 2019 07:00 PM

Hey Jan,

1 - You mention different takes on Sharia. You are correct. But at the core they all promote the values we deplore.
2 - As I said, I’m wired to look for solutions.
3 - So should we make the same analysis when we discuss white supremacists?
4 - I’m not letting fear and hate run anything, I’m supporting universal human rights.
5 - You cannot know about my empathy because I haven’t told you.

I don’t want people to be divided. ISLAM is a huge force in keeping people divided, that’s why I attack it. I just reread the first 5 pages or so of the Quran. It is primarily aimed at dividing Muslims from non-Muslims.

Instead of reading the Quran, I expect you’d learn more if you went out and had a coffee or watched a game with a Muslim.

This is a world wide issue involving 1.8 billion people. We need statistics and large polls to learn about the situation. Individual anecdotes are mostly meaningless.

And for f#cks sake - how many times have I told you that I have Muslim friends????

Have you shared your opinion about Islam with them?

Popular question today: I share my opinions about their religion with the same frequency that I share my opinions about the almost-as-screwed-up religion of Christianity with my Christian friends.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3369
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
20 March 2019 05:19
 

The easiest way to avoid problems with online communication is by practicing the fine art of listening.  What we are hearing and what we are seeing from what we are reading.  I don’t mean while we are reading.  I am referring the contemplative moments that follow each thought.  You have to fight through your own emotional luggage to get to the author’s message while the author is pushing past theirs to get through to you.  And, apparently, it’s a lot for everyone to carry.

There’s a fair amount of talking past each other on the Internet.  That is often confused with talking at each other, on forums like these, which is far more prevalent.  Any disagreement is quickly reframed into a misunderstanding of information or a misinterpretation of the delivery.  That indicates a hiccup in the listening process.  And rather than back up and locate the missing piece it becomes a disgruntled crux of disagreement.  Circling back is always to the advantage.

What people tend to do is attach themselves to anyone willing to entertain their presence.  Then they convince themselves this translates as friendship and double down on the posting, using them in this capacity, to keep saying what they want to say.  And the more they give them a platform the more they create one for themselves.  It turns into a reciprocal merry go round wobbling like a broken record.  Tap into the tempo or yer outta the loop.  The more voices resound the louder the music.

A little flexibility will widen the lens enough to appreciate the variety of talent in our midst.  Some people think they’ve cornered the market in every which way.  It’s never true.  There’s still no reason to monopolize every conversation.  It may merely require a moment to simply say: “Let me hold that thought while you say what you have to say.” And dispersing the pylons may lighten the load.  Then it won’t feel like anyone is trespassing on anyone else’s intellectual property.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
20 March 2019 09:50
 
burt - 19 March 2019 05:18 PM
icehorse - 19 March 2019 03:49 PM
lynmc - 19 March 2019 03:38 PM
icehorse - 17 March 2019 08:53 AM

Jan:

Do you actually know any Muslims?

Yes I do. And I count them as friends.

Jan:

If we can’t integrate people of different beliefs while holding firm to our own values, then there is something wrong with us.

This is true up to a point. We decided not to allow polygamists to pursue their beliefs, correct? We would not allow cannibals to pursue their beliefs.

Once again for the record: Islamic “values” include misogyny, supremacism, homophobia, anti-semitism, and theocracy. None of these are values we should integrate, correct? The ONLY point I’m making here is this: welcome the people, but reform their values.

I’m curious, how often do you tell your Muslim “friends” that their beliefs or their religion is misogynist, supremacist, anti-semitic and supports theocracy?

With the same frequency that I tell my Christian friends what I think of their almost-as-screwed-up religious beliefs.

A carefully crafted discussion might turn out to be illuminating.

By it’s nature such a discussion has to be nuanced. For example, I see the Quran as an amazing piece of propaganda, and I give credit to the authors for being way ahead of their time in understanding how propaganda works on the human brain. Modern cognitive science can speak to predicting what makes for good propaganda and how to assess the potential effectiveness of a piece. But it seems to me that that would be a very difficult conversation to have with most Muslims.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
Total Posts:  8763
Joined  20-02-2006
 
 
 
20 March 2019 11:38
 
icehorse - 20 March 2019 09:50 AM
burt - 19 March 2019 05:18 PM
icehorse - 19 March 2019 03:49 PM
lynmc - 19 March 2019 03:38 PM
icehorse - 17 March 2019 08:53 AM

Jan:

Do you actually know any Muslims?

Yes I do. And I count them as friends.

Jan:

If we can’t integrate people of different beliefs while holding firm to our own values, then there is something wrong with us.

This is true up to a point. We decided not to allow polygamists to pursue their beliefs, correct? We would not allow cannibals to pursue their beliefs.

Once again for the record: Islamic “values” include misogyny, supremacism, homophobia, anti-semitism, and theocracy. None of these are values we should integrate, correct? The ONLY point I’m making here is this: welcome the people, but reform their values.

I’m curious, how often do you tell your Muslim “friends” that their beliefs or their religion is misogynist, supremacist, anti-semitic and supports theocracy?

With the same frequency that I tell my Christian friends what I think of their almost-as-screwed-up religious beliefs.

A carefully crafted discussion might turn out to be illuminating.

By it’s nature such a discussion has to be nuanced. For example, I see the Quran as an amazing piece of propaganda, and I give credit to the authors for being way ahead of their time in understanding how propaganda works on the human brain. Modern cognitive science can speak to predicting what makes for good propaganda and how to assess the potential effectiveness of a piece. But it seems to me that that would be a very difficult conversation to have with most Muslims.

Or, as Lao Tsu said, “Once the people are bewitched, their bewitchment lasts a long time.”  Christians seem to think that the longer bewitchment lasts, the truer it is, or the more numerous the number of people bewitched - the truer it is.  They forget that bewitchment is passed down from parents to children and grows exponentially.  https://www.livescience.com/14147-number-13-bad-luck.html 

I wonder if Sam Harris has changed his views since he wrote, ‘The End of Faith - Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason’ in 2005?  (chapter 4 - ‘The Problem with Islam’).

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3369
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
20 March 2019 11:49
 

I’ve seen more than my share of trolling derailments.  And I can’t understand why the same outrage is absent from the veterans who were appalled by the racist ramblings of a newbie as opposed to the repetitive prejudices of a regular.  It may be a case of the devil you know over the devil you don’t.  There’s still no excuse.  It’s the same thing as far as I’m concerned.

Speaking of hypocrisy…straight from the horse’s mouth…

icehorse - 11 December 2018 01:30 PM

none whatsoever - just working on my propagandistic talking points.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
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20 March 2019 11:56
 

Nhoj:

Actually, it is the useful one, it is not mine or belong to me any more than the solar system belongs to Copernicus, and it is challenging yours. It made short work of mine. Trioon would challenge your affection for parsimony or, pressure-compressed perceptions. What about folks who are larger than your perception of them? As The Boss might say, it is matter of bandwidth.

I would be happy to agree that Trioon is necessary. But it is not sufficient. Fair enough?

Nhoj:

We should not be supporting memes at all except as slogans for breakfast cereal.

“We” live in a society that’s meme heavy. I would prefer that this wasn’t the case, but it’s the world we have to deal with.

Nhoj:

What about the plan they already have? Islam reforms their perception and grows narrative ability here. we could have been an inspiration in showing where the all the plans lead but we’ve probably blown the opportunity. They often say that we have applied too tiny of a perception to them.

If the world wasn’t in such a dangerous place, yours would be a humane and compassionate approach. I see Islamic fundamentalism as perhaps in the top 5 or 10 urgent issues in the world today. So to me we want to be as compassionate as possible, but we have to be aware of the urgency.

Nhoj:

This admin is asking you to stay off other patrons threads on the subject of Islam and Muslims and stick to your own. Considering the way they play out, we must treat them as a thread hijacking. This forum must be shared. Righteous causes of any kind will not override civility or justify repetition. All that should mean is recognizing when an opportunity to post is best not taken. It means taking in a bigger picture, which is also my advice on the subject of Islam.

Nhoj, is this something I can respond to on this thread, or should I respond to you with a PM?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
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20 March 2019 11:58
 
LadyJane - 20 March 2019 11:49 AM

I’ve seen more than my share of trolling derailments.  And I can’t understand why the same outrage is absent from the veterans who were appalled by the racist ramblings of a newbie as opposed to the repetitive prejudices of a regular.  It may be a case of the devil you know over the devil you don’t.  There’s still no excuse.  It’s the same thing as far as I’m concerned.

Speaking of hypocrisy…straight from the horse’s mouth…

icehorse - 11 December 2018 01:30 PM

none whatsoever - just working on my propagandistic talking points.

LJ - Can you share your prejudices with us?

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
Total Posts:  6423
Joined  22-02-2005
 
 
 
20 March 2019 18:41
 
icehorse - 20 March 2019 11:56 AM

I would be happy to agree that Trioon is necessary. But it is not sufficient. Fair enough?

It you can cite something that trioon does not cover or fully engulf, that would be interesting.

“We” live in a society that’s meme heavy. I would prefer that this wasn’t the case, but it’s the world we have to deal with.

Solving memes would solve your Islam problem. The issue is attention bandwidth and not information or content.

If the world wasn’t in such a dangerous place, yours would be a humane and compassionate approach. I see Islamic fundamentalism as perhaps in the top 5 or 10 urgent issues in the world today. So to me we want to be as compassionate as possible, but we have to be aware of the urgency.

They are all the same urgency- short-sightedness due to insufficient attention bandwidth.

Nhoj, is this something I can respond to on this thread, or should I respond to you with a PM?

PM’s from patrons are always welcome.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
Total Posts:  9716
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
20 March 2019 19:20
 
LadyJane - 20 March 2019 11:49 AM

I’ve seen more than my share of trolling derailments.  And I can’t understand why the same outrage is absent from the veterans who were appalled by the racist ramblings of a newbie as opposed to the repetitive prejudices of a regular.  It may be a case of the devil you know over the devil you don’t.  There’s still no excuse.  It’s the same thing as far as I’m concerned.

Speaking of hypocrisy…straight from the horse’s mouth…

icehorse - 11 December 2018 01:30 PM

none whatsoever - just working on my propagandistic talking points.

I spent many posts reining in Icehorse’s anti-Muslim rants, and thought we had come to an understanding.  Apparentl, I am wrong about the understanding.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
20 March 2019 20:48
 
Skipshot - 20 March 2019 07:20 PM
LadyJane - 20 March 2019 11:49 AM

I’ve seen more than my share of trolling derailments.  And I can’t understand why the same outrage is absent from the veterans who were appalled by the racist ramblings of a newbie as opposed to the repetitive prejudices of a regular.  It may be a case of the devil you know over the devil you don’t.  There’s still no excuse.  It’s the same thing as far as I’m concerned.

Speaking of hypocrisy…straight from the horse’s mouth…

icehorse - 11 December 2018 01:30 PM

none whatsoever - just working on my propagandistic talking points.

I spent many posts reining in Icehorse’s anti-Muslim rants, and thought we had come to an understanding.  Apparentl, I am wrong about the understanding.

Remind me skip?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7708
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 March 2019 14:28
 
Garret - 18 March 2019 10:55 PM
icehorse - 16 March 2019 11:46 AM
Jan_CAN - 16 March 2019 10:09 AM
icehorse - 16 March 2019 08:26 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 10:46 PM

Islamophobia (which has come to mean dislike of Muslims) is tied up with racism in addition to religious intolerance.  As with other such terrible acts, this one was committed by a self-proclaimed racist and white supremacist.

Forty-nine human beings were horribly massacred and yet there are those, who like Trump, will not name it or acknowledge why.  Which is part of the problem.

Yes indeed, the media often “ties up” the made up term of Islamophobia with actual racism. We must strive to de-tangle these ideas if we want to solve them.

So first off, we should stop using the term “Islamophobia”, it is a fundamentally dishonest term, and helping to propagate it does not help, it hurts.
Next, we must disentangle Muslims from being a race. Again, such entanglement hurts the situation.

Whether you or others like it or not, the term ‘Islamophobia’ is now the one being used to describe prejudice against Muslims and this is unlikely to change.  (The term ‘antisemitism’ could also be considered not optimum to denote prejudice against Jews, but is nonetheless the term in common use.)

The fact is that most Muslims are ‘non-white’ and many are relatively recent immigrants to the West.  Racism is an aspect of the prejudice shown towards them and to deny this is a mistake.  There is undeniably an increase in alt-right/white supremacist persecution of these people that should not be ignored or minimized.

When posting this thread, I assumed there would be a common sympathy for the victims of this tragedy.  That everyone here would be united by this sympathy and that comments might arise about how such horrible events could be prevented in the future.  It saddens me that, instead of identifying with the victims as our brothers and sisters, it should be used to make comments indicating an inability to do so.  (I have no desire at this time of sadness to debate your particular views on Islam.)

I am sympathetic and I am also concerned about the future. While I agree with your assessments of common word usage and problems, these common attitudes contain dangerous misinformation and conflations. If we’re really going to prevent such things in the future, we’re going to have to be honest in our understanding.

Actually, trying to separate out the hatred, stereotypes, and mistreatment of Muslims from racism would be disingenuous.  It’s deeply embedded within the racist ideologies that came out of the 18th and 19th centuries that persist to this day.  What you are suggesting is a dangerous rewriting of history that seeks to whitewash our understanding of how these ideas have developed.

I’m not suggesting that we rewrite history. Are you saying that we need to stick with inaccurate terms (“Islamaphobia” is a new term btw), for the sake of historical consistency?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3468
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23 March 2019 13:36
 

From another thread:

GAD - 23 March 2019 01:17 PM

I didn’t find you calling me a racist and misogynist on another very funny.

I don’t recall directly calling you that, although I might have implied that something you said was along these lines.
You’ve certainly derided me enough times and I have not always reacted well, for which I apologize.
Perhaps we could do better?

 

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  1859
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
23 March 2019 15:18
 
icehorse, to Garret - 21 March 2019 02:28 PM

I’m not suggesting that we rewrite history. Are you saying that we need to stick with inaccurate terms (“Islamaphobia” is a new term btw), for the sake of historical consistency?

I was surprised to read in the following article that Islamophobia was coined about a hundred years ago. Does it have a political slant associated with it that you object to?

Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against, the Islamic religion or Muslims generally, especially when seen as a geopolitical force or the source of terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Or, is your objection to the word more direct—that is, you don’t viscerally fear Islam? I’m just curious more than anything.

 

 
 
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