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The Klein Bottle

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 March 2019 17:39
 
nonverbal - 23 March 2019 03:18 PM
icehorse, to Garret - 21 March 2019 02:28 PM

I’m not suggesting that we rewrite history. Are you saying that we need to stick with inaccurate terms (“Islamaphobia” is a new term btw), for the sake of historical consistency?

I was surprised to read in the following article that Islamophobia was coined about a hundred years ago. Does it have a political slant associated with it that you object to?

Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against, the Islamic religion or Muslims generally, especially when seen as a geopolitical force or the source of terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Or, is your objection to the word more direct—that is, you don’t viscerally fear Islam? I’m just curious more than anything.

The word is intentionally misleading. It conflates Islam with Muslims, and it attempts to label legitimate criticism of Islamic ideas as a phobia.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3710
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
23 March 2019 17:45
 

If this was an off leash dog park (and it often feels like it is) I’d be inclined to make a couple of reasonable requests. 

The first would be to come prepared with the necessary training required to play here and if there are any outbursts of unruly behaviour kindly keep them tethered.  The second would be to pay attention.  Look alive.  Take responsibility for the piles of shit that you leave behind.  The last thing anyone wants to do to step in one of your steaming piles of shit.  Especially if they’ve stepped in that indefinite article of shit before.  And they have.  On account’a the same individuals don’t recognize the shit as shit and therefore never feel the need to clean up after the shit they leave.  Even though it’s shit.  Forcing the rest of us to walk around the shit in order to tread more attractive terrain.  And there’s really no use in spreading that shit around.  Some of that shit is nasty.  And often parasitic where treatment is lacking. 

I don’t know.  I don’t think it’s too much to ask.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 March 2019 18:04
 
LadyJane - 23 March 2019 05:42 PM

There is a difference between value and worth.  And our values change.  Which means almost everyone is redeemable for any perceived transgressions.  Individuals develop a code of conduct and societies determine what rules we need to follow.  We decide what is worth.  New Zealand is exemplifying the extent to which this is possible.  Which is the aim of most people and the topic of this thread.  When we force someone to adhere to our personal philosophy it’s like waterboarding for fun.  We’re not really looking to extract information as much as impart fear when it is us who is drowning.  There are people barely keeping their heads above water while enduring a barrage of endless waves strategically placed to keep everybody down.  And it’s completely unnecessary.  Coz fuck that undertow.

Yet another ambiguous, cowardly post from LJ. Ya got something to say, just say it without all the subterfuge.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 March 2019 18:06
 
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:48 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 05:34 PM
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:30 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 04:37 PM

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

It should be noted that you cut off part of Jefe’s sentence which read:
“It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.”

Other suspect ideologies are frequently guilty of similar such crimes.

Please take your ‘othering’ over to your own current thread - you’re not going to get the last word on this one.
(It’s too bad you couldn’t also have indicated agreement with Jefe’s sympathy for the victims and their families.)

At least I’m honest about occurrences of “othering”. You seem to be worried about “othering” only when it’s PC to do so.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3538
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
23 March 2019 18:15
 
icehorse - 23 March 2019 06:06 PM
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:48 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 05:34 PM
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:30 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 04:37 PM

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

It should be noted that you cut off part of Jefe’s sentence which read:
“It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.”

Other suspect ideologies are frequently guilty of similar such crimes.

Please take your ‘othering’ over to your own current thread - you’re not going to get the last word on this one.
(It’s too bad you couldn’t also have indicated agreement with Jefe’s sympathy for the victims and their families.)

At least I’m honest about occurrences of “othering”. You seem to be worried about “othering” only when it’s PC to do so.

What I’m concerned about is the victims of ‘othering’, not in perpetuating the practise.  And there you go again ... claiming to be more honest than someone who disagrees with you.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 March 2019 18:42
 
LadyJane - 23 March 2019 05:45 PM

If this was an off leash dog park (and it often feels like it is) I’d be inclined to make a couple of reasonable requests. 

The first would be to come prepared with the necessary training required to play here and if there are any outbursts of unruly behaviour kindly keep them tethered.  The second would be to pay attention.  Look alive.  Take responsibility for the piles of shit that you leave behind.  The last thing anyone wants to do to step in one of your steaming piles of shit.  Especially if they’ve stepped in that indefinite article of shit before.  And they have.  On account’a the same individuals don’t recognize the shit as shit and therefore never feel the need to clean up after the shit they leave.  Even though it’s shit.  Forcing the rest of us to walk around the shit in order to tread more attractive terrain.  And there’s really no use in spreading that shit around.  Some of that shit is nasty.  And often parasitic where treatment is lacking. 

I don’t know.  I don’t think it’s too much to ask.

As insufferable as you apparently (sometimes?) find me to be, I sometimes find you more so.

[ Edited: 23 March 2019 19:09 by icehorse]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 March 2019 18:43
 

Jan:

What I’m concerned about is the victims of ‘othering’, not in perpetuating the practise

Hey !!  Me Too !!

We have some common ground after all. Might be good to call this a win!

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
Total Posts:  1900
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
24 March 2019 09:53
 
icehorse - 23 March 2019 05:39 PM
nonverbal - 23 March 2019 03:18 PM
icehorse, to Garret - 21 March 2019 02:28 PM

I’m not suggesting that we rewrite history. Are you saying that we need to stick with inaccurate terms (“Islamaphobia” is a new term btw), for the sake of historical consistency?

I was surprised to read in the following article that Islamophobia was coined about a hundred years ago. Does it have a political slant associated with it that you object to?

Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against, the Islamic religion or Muslims generally, especially when seen as a geopolitical force or the source of terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Or, is your objection to the word more direct—that is, you don’t viscerally fear Islam? I’m just curious more than anything.

The word is intentionally misleading. It conflates Islam with Muslims, and it attempts to label legitimate criticism of Islamic ideas as a phobia.

So you don’t fear potential encroachment of Islam into your society?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  8230
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
24 March 2019 10:02
 
nonverbal - 24 March 2019 09:53 AM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 05:39 PM
nonverbal - 23 March 2019 03:18 PM
icehorse, to Garret - 21 March 2019 02:28 PM

I’m not suggesting that we rewrite history. Are you saying that we need to stick with inaccurate terms (“Islamaphobia” is a new term btw), for the sake of historical consistency?

I was surprised to read in the following article that Islamophobia was coined about a hundred years ago. Does it have a political slant associated with it that you object to?

Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against, the Islamic religion or Muslims generally, especially when seen as a geopolitical force or the source of terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Or, is your objection to the word more direct—that is, you don’t viscerally fear Islam? I’m just curious more than anything.

The word is intentionally misleading. It conflates Islam with Muslims, and it attempts to label legitimate criticism of Islamic ideas as a phobia.

So you don’t fear potential encroachment of Islam into your society?

I fear that most religious fundamentalists are relentlessly trying to chip away at secularism. My understanding is that there are more Islamic fundamentalists than fundamentalists in other religions. The definition of “fundamentalist” I’m using in this case is any Muslim who thinks that sharia should be at least a part of the legal system where they live.

This doesn’t seem like an “irrational fear” to me, we see evidence of such “chipping away” all over the world.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1670
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
24 March 2019 12:34
 
icehorse - 24 March 2019 10:02 AM

I fear that most religious fundamentalists are relentlessly trying to chip away at secularism.

This is exactly how I feel about Evangelical Christians here in the United States, because they’re succeeding. Roe v Wade will most likely get overturned with the conservative majority in the Supreme Court. Then there’s the overall attack on science by these people, particularly global warming and evolution. We also have an Evangelical extremist as vice president and many others who fill high ranking positions in the government.

Evangelical Christian fundamentalists are destroying secularism in the United States far more than Islamic fundamentalists ever will. I view them as the much greater threat.

 
 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
Total Posts:  359
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
24 March 2019 14:47
 
Cheshire Cat - 24 March 2019 12:34 PM
icehorse - 24 March 2019 10:02 AM

I fear that most religious fundamentalists are relentlessly trying to chip away at secularism.

This is exactly how I feel about Evangelical Christians here in the United States, because they’re succeeding. Roe v Wade will most likely get overturned with the conservative majority in the Supreme Court. Then there’s the overall attack on science by these people, particularly global warming and evolution. We also have an Evangelical extremist as vice president and many others who fill high ranking positions in the government.

Evangelical Christian fundamentalists are destroying secularism in the United States far more than Islamic fundamentalists ever will. I view them as the much greater threat.

A very good point. From my perch, I’m also much more concerned about Christian Evangelical fundamentalism influence in the US than any Muslim Islamic fundamentalist influence in our country. As we know, the Evangelical fundamentalism movement in the US is not a fringe phenomenon. They command huge political clout and their political influence continues to tug the US in the direction of an anti-science, anti-intellectual, and theism-based theocracy of sorts. I used to be an Evangelical so I have some idea of how they think and what motivates them. Those who are politically active see themselves as saviors of the US culture - culture warriors called by god. They are essentially the American version of the Taliban.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1670
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
24 March 2019 15:35
 
proximacentauri - 24 March 2019 02:47 PM

A very good point. From my perch, I’m also much more concerned about Christian Evangelical fundamentalism influence in the US than any Muslim Islamic fundamentalist influence in our country. As we know, the Evangelical fundamentalism movement in the US is not a fringe phenomenon. They command huge political clout and their political influence continues to tug the US in the direction of an anti-science, anti-intellectual, and theism-based theocracy of sorts. I used to be an Evangelical so I have some idea of how they think and what motivates them. Those who are politically active see themselves as saviors of the US culture - culture warriors called by god. They are essentially the American version of the Taliban.

Agreed.

You were an Evangelical? What shook you out of that way of life? If it’s too personal, and you don’t want to talk about it, I can understand.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
Total Posts:  10273
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
24 March 2019 17:37
 
Skipshot - 02 February 2019 11:53 AM

A mouse has been spotted prowling the kitchen by everyone in my house except our two cats.  We named the mouse Crumbs.

Crumbs lives!  S/he scurried across the kitchen floor and under the cabinetry!  Lousy cats. . .

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1670
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
24 March 2019 17:41
 
Skipshot - 24 March 2019 05:37 PM

Lousy cats. . .

Hey! I take offense at that statement.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3538
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
24 March 2019 18:10
 
Skipshot - 24 March 2019 05:37 PM
Skipshot - 02 February 2019 11:53 AM

A mouse has been spotted prowling the kitchen by everyone in my house except our two cats.  We named the mouse Crumbs.

Crumbs lives!  S/he scurried across the kitchen floor and under the cabinetry!  Lousy cats. . .


Ode to a mouse

 

 
 
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