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It’s not about terrorists, it’s about theocracy

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 June 2016 11:19
 

It strikes me that in thread after thread people bring up Islamic terrorism, and then others respond with various reasons why terrorism is a bad indicator of Islam.

From my perspective, terrorism is a bit of a red herring, a distraction. What bothers me about Islam is that there are about 500 million Muslims in the world (maybe more), who think that we all ought to be governed by theocracy.

I think theocracies are mostly horrible, and are in direct conflict with secularism and humanism. While secularism isn’t perfect, I think it’s far better than theocracy.

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That’s what I think the debate should be about.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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25 June 2016 15:53
 

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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25 June 2016 19:35
 
icehorse - 25 June 2016 11:19 AM

...

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That’s what I think the debate should be about.

Don’t look at me!

Oh, was this not a rhetorical question?

wink

In that case, I think that a lot of people are conditioned to believe that living in a theocratic state is something to be wished for. One problem with that is the conception that people without government are not already living in a theocratic state. The notion that a formal government staffed by people is somehow closer to God than an anarchic state belies the claim that God already governs all. I haven’t thought this through at all, but maybe some interesting discussion may come of it.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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25 June 2016 23:54
 

A well-running theocracy is a nifty thing: it’s incredibly stable, drawing legitimacy both from laws/policing and spiritual authority.
Also, people have an additional path to status beyond politics or commerce. That can be very powerful since it can give even the poorest a sense of belonging.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 June 2016 07:25
 
Twissel - 25 June 2016 11:54 PM

A well-running theocracy is a nifty thing: it’s incredibly stable, drawing legitimacy both from laws/policing and spiritual authority.
Also, people have an additional path to status beyond politics or commerce. That can be very powerful since it can give even the poorest a sense of belonging.

Could be in theory, can you name a few such exisiting setups you’d be happy to move to?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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26 June 2016 07:30
 

I do not want to live in a theocracy.  If we have to have imperfect leaders - which we do - I want to have a voice in their selection. Liberal democratic republics are the best choice - by liberal I mean one that protects certain civil liberties and individual rights.

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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26 June 2016 21:33
 

If I were recognized as a person who knew a lot about whatever the local religion was, and especially if I knew a lot about what it told people to do, and if I liked telling people what to do, then I suppose I would like to live in a theocracy, because I might get to be a top dog.

I generally don’t like to tell people what to do, so that’s out. I like telling people when I think they’re wrong, but that has nothing to do with any kind of -cracy.

wink

 
 
21stCenturyIconoclast
 
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21stCenturyIconoclast
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28 June 2016 08:56
 

Poldano,

Your “local” primitive belief is Catholicism, which you know a lot about in the way of jettisoning most of it’s doctrine to save face in the 21st century, and in doing so, it forcibly makes you a pseudo-christian Catholic. Instead of you telling people what to do, your pagan belief is trying to tell you what to do, but you deny this simple religious premise of your faith because as seen within your postings, you’re obviously embarrassed about it and therefore run from it.

Look at your previous postings where you take a carte blanche stance and make your Bronze and Iron Age comical faith into what ever you want it to be. Priceless.

You are taking a “top dog” stance in this respect by playing god and rewriting your Catholic bible on a continued basis, which is comical to watch, but at the same time, you want to be called a Catholic!  Surely you jest?

Oh, when one follows a primitive belief, you’re responsible in tell your children the whole truth and nothing but the truth and not to sugar coat it, okay? Therefore, did you tell your children that you worship a Jesus character that was a serial killer in the way of brutally killing others in the Flood, will smash innocent babies upon the rocks in his 2016 years and counting return, etc.?  I am sure they’ll be so happy when you tell them of this MO of your Jesus character!  LOL

Don’t be embarrassed about your serial killer Jesus because even though he is a devout killer, you’re to defend your primitive faith, okay?

“We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,” (2 Corinthians 10:5)

 
June
 
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June
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28 June 2016 15:41
 

I do not want to live under Sharia Law.  There have been abrupt changes in policy since around 2006, in the later years of George W. Bush and accelerated by the Obama Administration with organizations such as the Department of Homeland Security.    While the ongoing narrative on the Sam Harris Forum is to chase after the ghosts of the religion of Christianity,  front groups for the Muslim Brotherhood continue to make inroads within our own government placing American citizens at risk. 

I would recommend reading,  See Something Say Nothing, by Philip Haney.  He was a Middle East intelligence and retired DHS expert, ordered to scrub from databases, years worth of research and compilations about terrorists and their cells, a connect the dots method, that did not align with the “moral” narrative coming from the white house.  One of building relationships over and above that of fact based discoveries made by law enforcement.

Unlikely though,  we will see the narrative turn on Islam as a seditious political movement with the intent of replacing the Constitution with Sharia Law.

[ Edited: 30 June 2016 10:46 by June]
 
 
Poldano
 
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28 June 2016 18:07
 
21stCenturyIconoclast - 28 June 2016 08:56 AM

Poldano,

Your “local” primitive belief is Catholicism, which you know a lot about in the way of jettisoning most of it’s doctrine to save face in the 21st century, and in doing so, it forcibly makes you a pseudo-christian Catholic. Instead of you telling people what to do, your pagan belief is trying to tell you what to do, but you deny this simple religious premise of your faith because as seen within your postings, you’re obviously embarrassed about it and therefore run from it.

Look at your previous postings where you take a carte blanche stance and make your Bronze and Iron Age comical faith into what ever you want it to be. Priceless.

You are taking a “top dog” stance in this respect by playing god and rewriting your Catholic bible on a continued basis, which is comical to watch, but at the same time, you want to be called a Catholic!  Surely you jest?

Oh, when one follows a primitive belief, you’re responsible in tell your children the whole truth and nothing but the truth and not to sugar coat it, okay? Therefore, did you tell your children that you worship a Jesus character that was a serial killer in the way of brutally killing others in the Flood, will smash innocent babies upon the rocks in his 2016 years and counting return, etc.?  I am sure they’ll be so happy when you tell them of this MO of your Jesus character!  LOL

Don’t be embarrassed about your serial killer Jesus because even though he is a devout killer, you’re to defend your primitive faith, okay?

“We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,” (2 Corinthians 10:5)

In what way is this relevant to either the current topic, or what I posted here?

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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03 July 2016 17:22
 
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

 

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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03 July 2016 23:36
 
lynmc - 03 July 2016 05:22 PM
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

 

Yep.

Begging a question for the sake of a good argument, is Thou Shalt Not Steal a religious principle? I expect that for some people it is, for other people it isn’t.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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04 July 2016 08:17
 
lynmc - 03 July 2016 05:22 PM
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

Well I don’t like ANY religion attempting to make incursions into secularism. That said, I don’t understand this argument (and I hear it a lot), “Islam isn’t worse than Christianity”. Ugh. Who cares? Is this from the “Two wrongs make it right” school of philosophy?

Finally, I simply disagree with many Islamic values. This isn’t fear mongering or hate mongering. Islam is supremacist - I don’t like that. It’s misogynistic, I don’t like that. And so on.

As for polls, do you disagree with the claims made in this video:?

minority myth

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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04 July 2016 08:20
 
Poldano - 03 July 2016 11:36 PM
lynmc - 03 July 2016 05:22 PM
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

 

Yep.

Begging a question for the sake of a good argument, is Thou Shalt Not Steal a religious principle? I expect that for some people it is, for other people it isn’t.

My take (perhaps not surprisingly), is that in the old days, religious middlemen (e.g. clergy), attempted to co-op existing moral and ethical standards and make them the domain of religion. So no, “thou shalt not steal” is a moral standard co-oped by christianity.

 
 
Poldano
 
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04 July 2016 23:33
 
icehorse - 04 July 2016 08:20 AM

...

Begging a question for the sake of a good argument, is Thou Shalt Not Steal a religious principle? I expect that for some people it is, for other people it isn’t.

My take (perhaps not surprisingly), is that in the old days, religious middlemen (e.g. clergy), attempted to co-op existing moral and ethical standards and make them the domain of religion. So no, “thou shalt not steal” is a moral standard co-oped by christianity.

It was co-opted by Judaism before it was co-opted by Christianity, and it occurred at a time before Judaism called itself Judaism.

I have a different take on the secular-religious dichotomy. The distinction did not exist in anybody’s mind until fairly recently, in historical terms. Religion was that specific cultural institution that dealt with deities, and deities were considered to be what made the world work.

(This is tangential to the topic so I’ll leave it at that.)

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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05 July 2016 19:49
 
Poldano - 03 July 2016 11:36 PM
lynmc - 03 July 2016 05:22 PM
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

 

Yep.

Begging a question for the sake of a good argument, is Thou Shalt Not Steal a religious principle? I expect that for some people it is, for other people it isn’t.

Religious or not, Thou Shalt Not Steal appears to be a capitalist principle, asserting that there is a principle of private ownership (although I guess the communists never got rid of money).  Honored by religious and non-religious alike.  Probably more often in the breach, as in the wholesale theft of the Americas from the Native Americans, or Palestine from Palestinians, where the application is “Thou Shalt Not Steal” except it’s OK to steal from those we deem violent savages and hence less than fully human.  Of course there’s the whole area of “legal theft” which provides plenty of ways for the more powerful to extract goods or labor from people without their consenting to it.

Then there’s Thou Shalt Not Kill.  Religious principle or not?

 
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