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It’s not about terrorists, it’s about theocracy

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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05 July 2016 20:01
 
icehorse - 04 July 2016 08:17 AM
lynmc - 03 July 2016 05:22 PM
Brick Bungalow - 25 June 2016 03:53 PM

Absolutely. Institutional violence far outweighs anarchic violence in every society that I know of.

Ditto.

However, the assertion that 500 million (a bit less than 1/3 of Muslims worldwide) Muslims don’t want democracy is probably exaggerated (a lot of such assertions regarding Muslims seem to be purposeful fear and hate-mongering).  In polling taken in several Muslim countries, support for democratic principles such as freedom of speech is overwhelming.

While 1/3 of Muslims worldwide may likely wish to live under governments guided by religious principles, this is not the same as theocracy.  Nor should one be surprised at this, in the U.S. 46% or thereabouts want the bible to be a source for legislation and 9% want it to be the sole source.

Well I don’t like ANY religion attempting to make incursions into secularism. That said, I don’t understand this argument (and I hear it a lot), “Islam isn’t worse than Christianity”. Ugh. Who cares? Is this from the “Two wrongs make it right” school of philosophy?

Finally, I simply disagree with many Islamic values. This isn’t fear mongering or hate mongering. Islam is supremacist - I don’t like that. It’s misogynistic, I don’t like that. And so on.

As for polls, do you disagree with the claims made in this video:?

minority myth

I have no desire to try to determine whether the polls cited by such an obvious hate-mongerer are well-conducted or whether he’s interpreting them in an unbiased way, when it’s perfectly apparent he’s not.

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

 

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 July 2016 20:41
 

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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05 July 2016 21:33
 
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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06 July 2016 21:34
 

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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07 July 2016 08:28
 
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Still trying to justify mass murder and ethnic cleansing?  Based on the fact it was practiced in the past?  How about slavery?  Is that OK because it was practiced historically?

Living on land your ancestors stole is one thing, denying the original inhabitants equal rights or full rights they’re entitled to in that land is another.  Ethnic cleansing by means of mass murder is an act of genocide, acquisition of territory by conquest of arms has long been considered illegitimate, denying people equal rights is apartheid.  These are among the gravest breaches of international law, the crime of genocide recognized since at least 1945 (the convention came into force a little later), apartheid since 1973, and laws against conquest of territory since at least 1907.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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07 July 2016 10:55
 
lynmc - 07 July 2016 08:28 AM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Still trying to justify mass murder and ethnic cleansing?  Based on the fact it was practiced in the past?  How about slavery?  Is that OK because it was practiced historically?

Living on land your ancestors stole is one thing, denying the original inhabitants equal rights or full rights they’re entitled to in that land is another.  Ethnic cleansing by means of mass murder is an act of genocide, acquisition of territory by conquest of arms has long been considered illegitimate, denying people equal rights is apartheid.  These are among the gravest breaches of international law, the crime of genocide recognized since at least 1945 (the convention came into force a little later), apartheid since 1973, and laws against conquest of territory since at least 1907.

Aha! So it seems that we are starting to understand the time-line boundaries that you think are appropriate. And they might be, but the first step is to acknowledge that your arguments DO have a specific contextual basis.

And, please stop putting words in my mouth.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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08 July 2016 09:33
 
icehorse - 07 July 2016 10:55 AM
lynmc - 07 July 2016 08:28 AM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Still trying to justify mass murder and ethnic cleansing?  Based on the fact it was practiced in the past?  How about slavery?  Is that OK because it was practiced historically?

Living on land your ancestors stole is one thing, denying the original inhabitants equal rights or full rights they’re entitled to in that land is another.  Ethnic cleansing by means of mass murder is an act of genocide, acquisition of territory by conquest of arms has long been considered illegitimate, denying people equal rights is apartheid.  These are among the gravest breaches of international law, the crime of genocide recognized since at least 1945 (the convention came into force a little later), apartheid since 1973, and laws against conquest of territory since at least 1907.

Aha! So it seems that we are starting to understand the time-line boundaries that you think are appropriate. And they might be, but the first step is to acknowledge that your arguments DO have a specific contextual basis.

And, please stop putting words in my mouth.

A time-line boundary is not a context.  Nor did I ever deny that I have time-line boundaries (not that I’m unwilling to discuss events outside those boundaries), or a context.  Of course I have a context in mind, and whenever you’ve demanded it, I’ve told you what it is.  Of course, the only result is you keep demanding I “admit” to having a context, as if I haven’t as well as provided it.  On the other hand, other than (as described below) providing “context” which isn’t really context (maybe you don’t understand what a context is?), you haven’t provided any answers as to what your context or timeline is.  I suppose you think you’ve found a real “gotcha”?  Nope, just convinced me you’re deliberately ignorant and stupid.

When you try to assert (in another thread), e.g., the Boko Haram attacks on Christians in Nigeria in this century should be taken as “context” for Israel’s mass murders of Christians and Muslims in Palestine in 1948, I can come to no other conclusion than that you are trying to justify Israel’s mass murders and ethnic cleansing.  Since historic land thefts actually work much better as “context” for future ones, your comment that we’re all guilty of living on stolen land appears to be just that, more justification.

I have no idea whether your bigotry against Muslims comes from your support for Israel, or vice versa.  It doesn’t matter.

There are different answers to the time-line boundaries for “living on stolen land” and “denying people who were illegally and/or violently expelled from the land the right to live in their land of origin.”

[ Edited: 08 July 2016 10:07 by lynmc]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 July 2016 10:00
 

lynmc -

Dude, I’m trying to have a nuanced discussion with you. You have not yet accurately grokked where I’m headed AND you resort to name calling. Please stop.

I find the Israel / Palestinian situation to be incredibly complex, and I don’t have any sort of black and white stance or solution or defense of Israel. Because of this I’m suspect of ANYONE who claims to be able to draw simple conclusions. You seem to be wanting to draw simple conclusions, and I think you’re oversimplifying the extraordinarily complex context of this situation. Of course I’m not in favor of genocide or ethnic cleansing, but I also don’t think that those things are happening.

For example, if the only thing one knew about WW II was that D-Day happened, one might conclude that England and the US invaded France. I believe that we need to look at the broader context of these situations in order to really uncover what’s true.

 
 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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08 July 2016 20:08
 
EN - 05 July 2016 09:33 PM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

I can think of a few possible exceptions. Tierro del Fuegans, Easter Islanders, and Greenland Eskimos come to mind.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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08 July 2016 20:58
 
icehorse - 08 July 2016 10:00 AM

lynmc -

Dude, I’m trying to have a nuanced discussion with you. You have not yet accurately grokked where I’m headed AND you resort to name calling. Please stop.

I have only your own statements to “grok” where you’re headed.  They are all anti-Palestinians, anti-Muslim and generally pro-Israel.


I find the Israel / Palestinian situation to be incredibly complex, and I don’t have any sort of black and white stance or solution or defense of Israel.

You have done nothing but paint Muslims as “black” and Palestinians as not wanting peace.  In addition to proposing more ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as a solution.  With respect to Israel, you proceed to excuse any misdeeds.

Because of this I’m suspect of ANYONE who claims to be able to draw simple conclusions. You seem to be wanting to draw simple conclusions, and I think you’re oversimplifying the extraordinarily complex context of this situation.

So much hand waving to make people look anywhere else.  If the facts don’t support your conclusions, just say it’s “complex?”  Do you think it’s that simple to make the facts go away?

 
Of course I’m not in favor of genocide or ethnic cleansing, but I also don’t think that those things are happening.

Human rights organizations (as well as the evidence) disagree with you on whether Israel is currently ethnically cleansing Palestinians.  I haven’t heard you object to Israel’s past ethnic cleansing or current apartheid.  Do I take it you don’t object to the apartheid Israel has imposed?  Or Israel’s past ethnic cleansing?  I haven’t heard one statement from you saying this was wrong.

For example, if the only thing one knew about WW II was that D-Day happened, one might conclude that England and the US invaded France. I believe that we need to look at the broader context of these situations in order to really uncover what’s true.

Right, one has to look at the whole history of the conflict.  That is why I said my context for Israel/Palestine was (basically) the history of the conflict.  You’ve thus refused to state your context other than to cite incidents like the 2014 DAESH attacks on Yazidis as “context” for Israel’s 1948 mass murders, terrorism against civilians, and violent expulsion of hundreds of thousands of otherwise peaceful Christians and Muslims.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 July 2016 21:38
 

lynmc -

it’s clear that there’s too much vitriol for us to be able to dig into anything interesting here.

later dude.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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08 July 2016 21:51
 
Poldano - 08 July 2016 08:08 PM
EN - 05 July 2016 09:33 PM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

I can think of a few possible exceptions. Tierro del Fuegans, Easter Islanders, and Greenland Eskimos come to mind.

Chile and Denmark stole those areas.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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11 July 2016 11:43
 
Poldano - 08 July 2016 08:08 PM
EN - 05 July 2016 09:33 PM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

I can think of a few possible exceptions. Tierro del Fuegans, Easter Islanders, and Greenland Eskimos come to mind.

I don’t think most Native Americans stole America.  But there were a lot of native species that apparently died out soon after they arrived.

Speaking of not wanting democracy, this might be interesting:
Some pundits think answer to right wing population is less democracy

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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11 July 2016 15:23
 
lynmc - 11 July 2016 11:43 AM
Poldano - 08 July 2016 08:08 PM
EN - 05 July 2016 09:33 PM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

I can think of a few possible exceptions. Tierro del Fuegans, Easter Islanders, and Greenland Eskimos come to mind.

I don’t think most Native Americans stole America.  But there were a lot of native species that apparently died out soon after they arrived.

Speaking of not wanting democracy, this might be interesting:
Some pundits think answer to right wing population is less democracy

I believe that most of the tribes and nations Europeans first encountered in the Americas had taken those lands from previous tribes. So we stole land from the Navajos and the Utes and the Lakotas and so on, but they stole from earlier tribes. It seems that there ought to be some sort of statute of limitations on this sort of situation, but I don’t know what it is…

In other words, very few people today would call the Navajos thieves, but many people call the US thieves. So there is some sort of common intuition at work here…

 
 
Poldano
 
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12 July 2016 03:15
 
EN - 08 July 2016 09:51 PM
Poldano - 08 July 2016 08:08 PM
EN - 05 July 2016 09:33 PM
icehorse - 05 July 2016 08:41 PM

What’s the statute of limitations for “living on stolen land”? Because I could give an answer to the statute question that would render all of us, every living human on the planet, guilty of living on stolen land.

Yes, we are the latest in a long line of land thieves.  For example, the US stole the southwest from Mexico, but they stole it from Spain, who stole it from native Americans, who had been stealing it from other native Americans for centuries.  May the best thief win.

I can think of a few possible exceptions. Tierro del Fuegans, Easter Islanders, and Greenland Eskimos come to mind.

Chile and Denmark stole those areas.

Right, but there is no evidence that the people I mentioned stole the land from anybody. Does guilt from living on stolen land apply even to those it’s stolen from? You’re a lawyer, so you should know.

 
 
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