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It’s not about terrorists, it’s about theocracy

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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16 July 2016 12:32
 
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

Would most of us on this forum be toast if most Christians took their religion seriously?

John 14:6 - “Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life!  No one comes to the Father except through me.”

John 15:6 - “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up, and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

Sam Harris quotes from the Koran - 4:55-56 -  “Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire.  No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge.  God is mighty and wise.”  This morning, in a political topic, I mentioned that schoolchildren in Saudi Arabia, (one of our staunchest allies) are still reading such things in their school textbooks.  Life in a theocracy -  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/watch/

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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16 July 2016 13:18
 

thanks for the link. disturbing throughout, but at around 22:00 you get a taste of what they teach their kids.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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20 July 2016 11:58
 
icehorse - 16 July 2016 01:18 PM

thanks for the link. disturbing throughout, but at around 22:00 you get a taste of what they teach their kids.

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/saudi-arabia-uncovered/ 

As a little boy, what did Osama bin Laden learn in his school textbooks?  As you point out, look around 22:00 on this Frontline film to find out.  (Saudi Arabia Uncovered)

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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22 July 2016 13:25
 
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

This link, Pew Research Muslims and Islam: key findings  is the first to come up when I google “pew muslims”, and no where does it say any “key finding” is Muslims don’t favor democracy.  So once again, you’re just proving your ignorance and bigotry.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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22 July 2016 14:05
 
lynmc - 22 July 2016 01:25 PM
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

This link, Pew Research Muslims and Islam: key findings  is the first to come up when I google “pew muslims”, and no where does it say any “key finding” is Muslims don’t favor democracy.  So once again, you’re just proving your ignorance and bigotry.

I might be wrong, but I just skimmed this entire thread, and I don’t think I ever mentioned “democracy”. What I said is that a LOT of Muslims would prefer to live in a theocracy. So once again, stop with the name calling.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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22 July 2016 16:02
 
icehorse - 22 July 2016 02:05 PM
lynmc - 22 July 2016 01:25 PM
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

This link, Pew Research Muslims and Islam: key findings  is the first to come up when I google “pew muslims”, and no where does it say any “key finding” is Muslims don’t favor democracy.  So once again, you’re just proving your ignorance and bigotry.

I might be wrong, but I just skimmed this entire thread, and I don’t think I ever mentioned “democracy”. What I said is that a LOT of Muslims would prefer to live in a theocracy. So once again, stop with the name calling.

Great, where is your evidence that 500 million Muslims prefer to live in a theocracy (a form of government in which a country is ruled by religious leaders - Merriam-Webster)?  Why aren’t all those 500 million agitating to have (by law) only qualified imams as kings, legislators, prime ministers, etc., thereby turning their countries into theocracies?

With respect to the name calling, I just happen to like facts.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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22 July 2016 21:32
 
lynmc - 22 July 2016 04:02 PM
icehorse - 22 July 2016 02:05 PM
lynmc - 22 July 2016 01:25 PM
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

This link, Pew Research Muslims and Islam: key findings  is the first to come up when I google “pew muslims”, and no where does it say any “key finding” is Muslims don’t favor democracy.  So once again, you’re just proving your ignorance and bigotry.

I might be wrong, but I just skimmed this entire thread, and I don’t think I ever mentioned “democracy”. What I said is that a LOT of Muslims would prefer to live in a theocracy. So once again, stop with the name calling.

Great, where is your evidence that 500 million Muslims prefer to live in a theocracy (a form of government in which a country is ruled by religious leaders - Merriam-Webster)?  Why aren’t all those 500 million agitating to have (by law) only qualified imams as kings, legislators, prime ministers, etc., thereby turning their countries into theocracies?

With respect to the name calling, I just happen to like facts.

The Pew poll on Muslims is where I got the evidence for the 500 million number. And in fact that’s a very conservative number. So you’re accusing me of things I never said, and you’re not reading the link you were given, but you claim to like facts…

I thought I’d give you another chance at a civil debate, but that appears not to be your agenda. So lynmc, i’m done having this conversation with you.

 
 
whiskey
 
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whiskey
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25 July 2016 01:08
 

Hello, everyone! Enjoying the conversations here. Two sentences of prep, then my point. Maybe, we’ll see. smile

I work for an OTT broadcaster. Our clients are traditional broadcast companies who choose our internet-based video delivery (up to 4k with no quality loss) over the far higher costs of traditional satellite or fiber delivery. Maybe a dozen of our customers are Muslim broadcasters, so I get to read and/or hear a handful of imams preaching to people in those lands. As an aside, I also get to see children’s shows but they are not subtitled, or in English, so I do not understand them.

As for the handful of imams I listen to, they never mention Wahhabism or Salafism. A few times I have seen a verse or three advocating the destruction of infidels, but the imams/hosts just moved on to the next verse or topic, when they generally explain whichever verses they think need an in-depth explanation. (Make of that what you will.) Two of those religious shows lack subtitles and are not in English, so I do not understand them. The other hosts, men and women who do bring up terrorism, are on talk shows. They genuinely seem to hate terrorism, as do their guests.

But…the reasons they hate that nonsense reminds me of Christian apologists. They justify the holiness of their beloved inerrant texts, claiming that humans have taken literal what god meant to be figurative. Therefore, god is smarter than we thought and we should worship him even more for this timely “revelation.” :/

My exposure to Islam is limited. Granted that, I prefer to assume that many internet-connected Muslims are mostly like other religious people around the world: They are exposed more and more to critical thinking, but perhaps more importantly, they are exposed to the confused conclusions that other religious figureheads on TV have about secularism, atheism, and the scientific method.

In my experience with my own Christian family and other Christians I’ve met down here around Atlanta, correcting that confusion is tough! I tried to talk about dogma with my Christian boss, who’s a brilliant programmer and benevolent manager, to no avail. If I can bastardize and butcher Sam’s words…you’re talking to a person who doesn’t understand that even though they are a critical thinker in every other aspect of their life, their mind partitions away those critical faculties in the face of generationally-entrenched dogma, which is the deeper and more relevant issue at hand. What evidence do you give someone who doesn’t value evidence in the religious space? Which logical argument do you share with someone who doesn’t value logical consistency?

Different strokes for different folks, they say. And all that jazz. There has to be a way to help the religious see that they have been…bamboozled, for lack of a better term offhand.

[ Edited: 25 July 2016 01:29 by whiskey]
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 July 2016 08:30
 
whiskey - 25 July 2016 01:08 AM

Different strokes for different folks, they say. And all that jazz. There has to be a way to help the religious see that they have been…bamboozled, for lack of a better term offhand.

No one has found a way yet…

 
 
Celal
 
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Celal
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25 July 2016 09:48
 
lynmc - 22 July 2016 04:02 PM
icehorse - 22 July 2016 02:05 PM
lynmc - 22 July 2016 01:25 PM
icehorse - 06 July 2016 09:34 PM

lynmc said:

Which specific claims to you agree with?  Cite your evidence.  In fact, cite your evidence that 500 million Muslims don’t favor democracy.

google “pew muslims” and you’ll find links to many poll results. These tend to be large polls, in the tens of thousands of participants. And remember, the claims made in the video are in keeping with Islamic scripture, they are not counter to it.

So basically the video and the polls are saying: “Guess what, lots of Muslims take their scripture seriously”. And now here you are disagreeing with that? Hmmm…

This link, Pew Research Muslims and Islam: key findings  is the first to come up when I google “pew muslims”, and no where does it say any “key finding” is Muslims don’t favor democracy.  So once again, you’re just proving your ignorance and bigotry.

I might be wrong, but I just skimmed this entire thread, and I don’t think I ever mentioned “democracy”. What I said is that a LOT of Muslims would prefer to live in a theocracy. So once again, stop with the name calling.

Great, where is your evidence that 500 million Muslims prefer to live in a theocracy (a form of government in which a country is ruled by religious leaders - Merriam-Webster)?  Why aren’t all those 500 million agitating to have (by law) only qualified imams as kings, legislators, prime ministers, etc., thereby turning their countries into theocracies?

With respect to the name calling, I just happen to like facts.

Why not give an example of a secular democracy in an overwhelmingly Muslim country!  Can you, the lover of facts?

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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25 July 2016 12:27
 

(Celal)

Why not give an example of a secular democracy in an overwhelmingly Muslim country!  Can you, the lover of facts?

Great, another bigoted fool.

Explain following implications of your demand:
a) Why you think that the particular form of government people have (in this case, Muslims) has anything to do with what form of government people actually want?
b) Why you think that wanting a non-secular form of government is the same as wanting a theocracy?

BTW, Great Britain and Germany, and a number of other western countries, are not secular democracies.  Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country that’s also a secular democracy.  The people of Great Britain and Germany seem perfectly happy with their god-ruled countries.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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25 July 2016 13:25
 

With respect to the name calling, I just happen to like facts.

As to being bigoted and stupid, I think icehorse has proven him/herself that time and time again.

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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25 July 2016 13:52
 
lynmc - 25 July 2016 12:27 PM

(Celal)

Why not give an example of a secular democracy in an overwhelmingly Muslim country!  Can you, the lover of facts?

Great, another bigoted fool.

Explain following implications of your demand:
a) Why you think that the particular form of government people have (in this case, Muslims) has anything to do with what form of government people actually want?
b) Why you think that wanting a non-secular form of government is the same as wanting a theocracy?

BTW, Great Britain and Germany, and a number of other western countries, are not secular democracies.  Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country that’s also a secular democracy.  The people of Great Britain and Germany seem perfectly happy with their god-ruled countries.

Both bigotry and being a fool often come from ignorance.

The only Muslim country example you came up with is Turkey.  You either do not understand secularism,  which is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief OR haven’t clue about the country of Turkey. One or the other. Or both. Which is it?

Turkey isn’t secular.

This Government Agency called “Diyanet Isleri Baskanligi”, here is the website: You can click on the english version.

http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/

In charge of upkeep, maintenance, staffing, appointments of Imams, etc of more than 80,000 Mosques. Not just Islam. Sunni Islam. Minorities are persecuted or even killed. 

Do you think you will apologize for calling me a fool or a bigot? I suspect not.

By the very definition and fundamentals of Islam, there can never be a secular democracy. There never has been and there never will be. Islam practiced varies from executions in public squares or in the dark, dingy corners of the prisons after torture out of public eye.

You are the fool thinking after having a shish kebab, homous and tabooli at a Middle Eastern restaurant and chatting with Abdul, you know all about Islam.  smile

 

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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25 July 2016 14:19
 
whiskey - 25 July 2016 01:08 AM

Hello, everyone! Enjoying the conversations here. Two sentences of prep, then my point. Maybe, we’ll see. :)

I work for an OTT broadcaster. Our clients are traditional broadcast companies who choose our internet-based video delivery (up to 4k with no quality loss) over the far higher costs of traditional satellite or fiber delivery. Maybe a dozen of our customers are Muslim broadcasters, so I get to read and/or hear a handful of imams preaching to people in those lands. As an aside, I also get to see children’s shows but they are not subtitled, or in English, so I do not understand them.

As for the handful of imams I listen to, they never mention Wahhabism or Salafism. A few times I have seen a verse or three advocating the destruction of infidels, but the imams/hosts just moved on to the next verse or topic, when they generally explain whichever verses they think need an in-depth explanation. (Make of that what you will.) Two of those religious shows lack subtitles and are not in English, so I do not understand them. The other hosts, men and women who do bring up terrorism, are on talk shows. They genuinely seem to hate terrorism, as do their guests.

But…the reasons they hate that nonsense reminds me of Christian apologists. They justify the holiness of their beloved inerrant texts, claiming that humans have taken literal what god meant to be figurative. Therefore, god is smarter than we thought and we should worship him even more for this timely “revelation.” :/

My exposure to Islam is limited. Granted that, I prefer to assume that many internet-connected Muslims are mostly like other religious people around the world: They are exposed more and more to critical thinking, but perhaps more importantly, they are exposed to the confused conclusions that other religious figureheads on TV have about secularism, atheism, and the scientific method.

In my experience with my own Christian family and other Christians I’ve met down here around Atlanta, correcting that confusion is tough! I tried to talk about dogma with my Christian boss, who’s a brilliant programmer and benevolent manager, to no avail. If I can bastardize and butcher Sam’s words…you’re talking to a person who doesn’t understand that even though they are a critical thinker in every other aspect of their life, their mind partitions away those critical faculties in the face of generationally-entrenched dogma, which is the deeper and more relevant issue at hand. What evidence do you give someone who doesn’t value evidence in the religious space? Which logical argument do you share with someone who doesn’t value logical consistency?

Different strokes for different folks, they say. And all that jazz. There has to be a way to help the religious see that they have been…bamboozled, for lack of a better term offhand.

And in my limited exposure to Muslims, they’re pretty much all devout but tend to favor women’s rights, gay rights, religious tolerance and a host of other liberal positions regardless of what it says in the religious texts.  With respect to each other’s beliefs in god, we just say to each other, that’s interesting.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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25 July 2016 14:40
 
Celal - 25 July 2016 01:52 PM
lynmc - 25 July 2016 12:27 PM

(Celal)

Why not give an example of a secular democracy in an overwhelmingly Muslim country!  Can you, the lover of facts?

Great, another bigoted fool.

Explain following implications of your demand:
a) Why you think that the particular form of government people have (in this case, Muslims) has anything to do with what form of government people actually want?
b) Why you think that wanting a non-secular form of government is the same as wanting a theocracy?

BTW, Great Britain and Germany, and a number of other western countries, are not secular democracies.  Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country that’s also a secular democracy.  The people of Great Britain and Germany seem perfectly happy with their god-ruled countries.

Both bigotry and being a fool often come from ignorance.

The only Muslim country example you came up with is Turkey.  You either do not understand secularism,  which is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief OR haven’t clue about the country of Turkey. One or the other. Or both. Which is it?

Turkey isn’t secular.

This Government Agency called “Diyanet Isleri Baskanligi”, here is the website: You can click on the english version.

http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/

In charge of upkeep, maintenance, staffing, appointments of Imams, etc of more than 80,000 Mosques. Not just Islam. Sunni Islam. Minorities are persecuted or even killed. 

Do you think you will apologize for calling me a fool or a bigot? I suspect not.

By the very definition and fundamentals of Islam, there can never be a secular democracy. There never has been and there never will be. Islam practiced varies from executions in public squares or in the dark, dingy corners of the prisons after torture out of public eye.

You are the fool thinking after having a shish kebab, homous and tabooli at a Middle Eastern restaurant and chatting with Abdul, you know all about Islam.  :)

 

Nope, and I don’t know anyone named Abdul.  But obviously, you speak Turk (right).  Here is wikipedia on Turkey: Religion in Turkey.  It is officially secular since 1924, whether or not minorities are oppressed.  No state religion, even though the people may want one.  So I need make no apologies for calling you what you are, an ignorant fool and a bigot.

 
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