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Islam, Taqiya and religious dialogue

 
EN
 
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EN
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04 August 2016 08:23
 
Twissel - 04 August 2016 08:18 AM

So if we don’t really know where many Muslims stand on an issue, how can we find common ground?

WHat’s wrong with giving them the benefit of the doubt until something happens that convinces you otherwise?  You really face the same risk with any person - you don’t know their intentions until you have some experience with them.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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04 August 2016 17:22
 
EN - 04 August 2016 08:23 AM
Twissel - 04 August 2016 08:18 AM

So if we don’t really know where many Muslims stand on an issue, how can we find common ground?

WHat’s wrong with giving them the benefit of the doubt until something happens that convinces you otherwise?  You really face the same risk with any person - you don’t know their intentions until you have some experience with them.

Statistically, I’m safer dealing with an unknown business man than I am dealing with an unknown gang banger.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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05 August 2016 09:38
 
Twissel - 04 August 2016 08:18 AM

Different schools of Islam put different barriers for “lying to unbelievers’ on their adherence. Some say its only allow to avoid direct, possibly life-threatening persecution. Other say it ok in order to avoid any disadvantage as long as ‘no innocent are harmed’, and variations of that.


If I can not be sure that I am dealing in ‘good faith’ with someone, how can even know what he/she really thinks?
After basically every terror attack, Imans and religious leaders of the community are interviewed and asked to condemn the act. By some interpretation it is perfectly acceptable for the person to lie about his views if that will spare him negative consequences.

So if we don’t really know where many Muslims stand on an issue, how can we find common ground?

Why believe anyone, anywhere about anything?

For example, a lot of people perceive it’s in their best interests to lie about Muslim theology, picking and choosing lines to paint it as negative as possible.  I suppose one could come up with some sociological reason, along the lines of garnering support for “your” group by presenting it as under attack by “them”  (Yes, Al Qaida and the like do the same thing in mirror image, presenting Islam as being under attack by the west).  Why fall for any of this crap?  People are just people, and generally willing to honestly express their beliefs if they think they won’t be condemned for them.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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05 August 2016 09:48
 
lynmc - 05 August 2016 09:38 AM
Twissel - 04 August 2016 08:18 AM

Different schools of Islam put different barriers for “lying to unbelievers’ on their adherence. Some say its only allow to avoid direct, possibly life-threatening persecution. Other say it ok in order to avoid any disadvantage as long as ‘no innocent are harmed’, and variations of that.

If I can not be sure that I am dealing in ‘good faith’ with someone, how can even know what he/she really thinks?
After basically every terror attack, Imans and religious leaders of the community are interviewed and asked to condemn the act. By some interpretation it is perfectly acceptable for the person to lie about his views if that will spare him negative consequences.

So if we don’t really know where many Muslims stand on an issue, how can we find common ground?

Why believe anyone, anywhere about anything?

For example, a lot of people perceive it’s in their best interests to lie about Muslim theology, picking and choosing lines to paint it as negative as possible.  I suppose one could come up with some sociological reason, along the lines of garnering support for “your” group by presenting it as under attack by “them”  (Yes, Al Qaida and the like do the same thing in mirror image, presenting Islam as being under attack by the west).  Why fall for any of this crap?  People are just people, and generally willing to honestly express their beliefs if they think they won’t be condemned for them.

If a reasonable person, learns a reasonable amount about Islam and it’s history, the phrase “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie on many levels. So when a person identifies as a Muslim, they are taking on this burden.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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06 August 2016 18:15
 
icehorse - 05 August 2016 09:48 AM

If a reasonable person, learns a reasonable amount about Islam and it’s history, the phrase “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie on many levels. So when a person identifies as a Muslim, they are taking on this burden.


When you study Islam primarily from those who hate Muslims, of course you learn that “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie and Muslims are liars.

Do you have any evidence that Muslims are more deceitful or violent than non-Muslims?

What is your definition of “religion of peace”?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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06 August 2016 19:03
 
lynmc - 06 August 2016 06:15 PM
icehorse - 05 August 2016 09:48 AM

If a reasonable person, learns a reasonable amount about Islam and it’s history, the phrase “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie on many levels. So when a person identifies as a Muslim, they are taking on this burden.


When you study Islam primarily from those who hate Muslims, of course you learn that “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie and Muslims are liars.

Do you have any evidence that Muslims are more deceitful or violent than non-Muslims?

What is your definition of “religion of peace”?

Doh! I totally forgot about bias! This changes everything!

 
 
Hypersoup
 
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Hypersoup
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10 August 2016 01:38
 

Munafiq - meaning hypocrite, and the idea is of a rat going into one hole and popping out of another. Persoanlly I go for a 6 valued logic.


I think maybe to the OP less for fun there is a case of MPD (multiple personality disorder) , different attitudes are expressed in different contexts. Not literal disorder, its like average psychology where you behave differnetly with your workmates that your boss, or balancing at the gym.

Different values are expressed etc, because the neural paths in the brain are trained to respond to context related needs. So we have branches of the psyche which arent that aware of one another, because those branches have developed in different environmental conditions.

[ Edited: 10 August 2016 01:44 by Hypersoup]
 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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10 August 2016 20:17
 
icehorse - 06 August 2016 07:03 PM
lynmc - 06 August 2016 06:15 PM
icehorse - 05 August 2016 09:48 AM

If a reasonable person, learns a reasonable amount about Islam and it’s history, the phrase “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie on many levels. So when a person identifies as a Muslim, they are taking on this burden.


When you study Islam primarily from those who hate Muslims, of course you learn that “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie and Muslims are liars.

Do you have any evidence that Muslims are more deceitful or violent than non-Muslims?

What is your definition of “religion of peace”?

Doh! I totally forgot about bias! This changes everything!

“Doh!”  You forgot about bias.  Well said.

Not that I have much interest in digging through all the crap you post, but what Muslims say is that the quotes from the Islamophobic sites you reference are taken out of context, the rest of the paragraph makes the meanings much clearer - the Quran calling for violent punishment of unbelievers who aggressively attack Muslims, e.g., not for general violence against unbelievers as one would believe if you only looked at the single line.  And whenever I’ve looked at them, the more disturbing quotes from your Islamophobic sites are indeed single lines out of much longer paragraphs where the whole story line gave a different meaning.  I’m not about to go through every quote, I think a couple of sample points are sufficient.

So, in general, you appear to have no interest in anything other than promoting hatred and bias, even if it means being a liar.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
10 August 2016 20:41
 
lynmc - 10 August 2016 08:17 PM
icehorse - 06 August 2016 07:03 PM
lynmc - 06 August 2016 06:15 PM
icehorse - 05 August 2016 09:48 AM

If a reasonable person, learns a reasonable amount about Islam and it’s history, the phrase “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie on many levels. So when a person identifies as a Muslim, they are taking on this burden.


When you study Islam primarily from those who hate Muslims, of course you learn that “Islam is a religion of peace” is a lie and Muslims are liars.

Do you have any evidence that Muslims are more deceitful or violent than non-Muslims?

What is your definition of “religion of peace”?

Doh! I totally forgot about bias! This changes everything!

“Doh!”  You forgot about bias.  Well said.

Not that I have much interest in digging through all the crap you post, but what Muslims say is that the quotes from the Islamophobic sites you reference are taken out of context, the rest of the paragraph makes the meanings much clearer - the Quran calling for violent punishment of unbelievers who aggressively attack Muslims, e.g., not for general violence against unbelievers as one would believe if you only looked at the single line.  And whenever I’ve looked at them, the more disturbing quotes from your Islamophobic sites are indeed single lines out of much longer paragraphs where the whole story line gave a different meaning.  I’m not about to go through every quote, I think a couple of sample points are sufficient.

So, in general, you appear to have no interest in anything other than promoting hatred and bias, even if it means being a liar.

Ouch! The rare strawman / ad hominem combo! I’m hit! I can’t feel my legs…

 
 
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