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Burkini Beach?

 
LauraG
 
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LauraG
Total Posts:  245
Joined  17-05-2016
 
 
 
21 August 2016 18:37
 
GAD - 21 August 2016 04:53 PM
Ola - 21 August 2016 12:07 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 11:38 AM
Ola - 21 August 2016 09:54 AM
GAD - 21 August 2016 09:32 AM
Ola - 20 August 2016 02:10 PM

So, Burkinis—a modern invention more likely to be used by modern, or “moderate”, or pro-reformist Muslim women than by fundamentalists—is now a symbol of terrorism? Seriously?

What began this fear of the Burkinis? I mean, what was the burkini-related incident that alerted us to the danger of Burkinis?

I feel pretty confused about it so far.

I don’t think confused as much as deliberately obtuse.

Pardon me?

For what, projecting modern, or “moderate”, or pro-reformist fundamentalists—is now a symbol of terrorism onto the issue of Burkinis?

Terrorism is the context.

Only in the context that accepting the insidious ideologies of Islam allows it to grow, and where it grows repression, conflict and terrorism eventually follow. The women are victims and promoting them as hero’s for wearing their prison bags to the beach is simply keeping them as such. If the KKK made there women wear clan robes and clankinis, would you be cooing about how modern, or “moderate” they are? No, I don’t think so. Rationalize on that for a while, I’d be interested in how you reconcile the rights of one hate group vs another.

 

“If the KKK made there women wear clan robes and clankinis”....

Wow - this idea of clankinis (if there was such a thing) is a brilliant way of thinking about this burkini issue. I listened to more Sam Harris debates regarding religion this weekend. The point he makes repeatedly is that criticism of religion & religious dogma & anything related to it has become verboten in the bulk of public discourse arenas. If one dares to question the ideas & practices of a particular religion, one is often labeled a bigot & intolerant. So, in the case of the burkini ban, the apologists raise so many objections such as: women should have the freedom to wear whatever they want, it is their “choice” to be modest by completely covering their bodies, this is no different than the female surfer who wears a wetsuit to the beach or the person who has sensitive skin who wears protective clothing to the beach, and so on.

What if, klan women were forced (or at the very least, “expected”) by their menfolk & ideology to wear klankinis to the beach - some form of the white robe & pointy hat & some form of face covering to boot. And what if they began to do this in greater numbers (as has happened in recent years with the burkini). Then couple that scenario with a spate of deadly terrorist attacks perpetrated by the KKK…one mostly recently in Miami beach where nearly 100 people were killed. And following that event, the klankinis continue to be worn on the nearby beaches of Fort Lauderdale.

How would people react to that? Would we say that the KKK womenfolk can wear whatever they want? That it is no different that some other white garb or headdress? Couldn’t one argue that the KKK is another religious like ideology?

I highly doubt that klankinis would be considered acceptable in such a context.

 

[ Edited: 22 August 2016 10:15 by LauraG]
 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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21 August 2016 19:05
 
GAD - 21 August 2016 05:05 PM
SkepticX - 21 August 2016 12:47 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 11:35 AM

Don’t pay attention to SkepticX ...

I was being sincere on all of that, man. I can’t blame you for your response, but I was being sincere, not sarcastic (arguably acerbic perhaps). I don’t expect people to be flawless to be likeable, even when I consider a flaw pretty serious. That’s just the way we humans are—the nature of the beast—and I’m kind of a fan of my fellow humans in general.

Bullshit! What did interjecting your deluded little fantasy of me have to do with the conversation, not a fucking thing.


Extracurricular to the discussion does not equal deception or insincerity. That’s a good example of the emotive thinking I was criticizing ... and criticizing thinking (meta-criticism) is always on topic because one’s thinking patterns, particularly the problem ones, always bear on any discussion or any consideration of issues. So you’re right that it wasn’t directly germane to the topic, but it was relevant, and it was also sincere. You can of course continue to choose to believe your own sentiments though.

 
 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 04:10
 
SkepticX - 21 August 2016 07:05 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 05:05 PM
SkepticX - 21 August 2016 12:47 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 11:35 AM

Don’t pay attention to SkepticX ...

I was being sincere on all of that, man. I can’t blame you for your response, but I was being sincere, not sarcastic (arguably acerbic perhaps). I don’t expect people to be flawless to be likeable, even when I consider a flaw pretty serious. That’s just the way we humans are—the nature of the beast—and I’m kind of a fan of my fellow humans in general.

Bullshit! What did interjecting your deluded little fantasy of me have to do with the conversation, not a fucking thing.


Extracurricular to the discussion does not equal deception or insincerity. That’s a good example of the emotive thinking I was criticizing ... and criticizing thinking (meta-criticism) is always on topic because one’s thinking patterns, particularly the problem ones, always bear on any discussion or any consideration of issues. So you’re right that it wasn’t directly germane to the topic, but it was relevant, and it was also sincere. You can of course continue to choose to believe your own sentiments though.


Oh, you guys! Get a room already. wink

 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 04:26
 

Couldn’t one argue that the KKK is another religious like ideology?

That sounds like a whole new thread!

It could be debated, I guess, but…now really, stop messing around, we may find violent extremism in many places, but we can still tell the difference between a religion and a club.

You don’t have to like Islam, or even religion, to acknowledge the difference.

We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion, but we do have to be honest about it and acknowledge that Islam is, for many Muslims, spiritual. http://trueislam.com/home/

Extremism within Islam, violence especially, be it Islamists, fundamentalists, whatever, is wicked and horrific. No debate there, I think.

Just a debate about whether a Burkini is inherently wicked. 


[ Edited: 22 August 2016 04:30 by Ola]
 
LauraG
 
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LauraG
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22 August 2016 07:31
 

I do not think “wicked” is the right way to describe the burkini - the connotation is simplistic & off the mark in my view. Rather, the burkini (as all of the other coverings the of Islamic WOMEN are) is a physical symbol of the inferior status of women inherent in the religion of Islam.  I read several articles over the weekend about the various burqa bans in Europe, as well as the specific recent bans on the burkini in a few French towns (e.g. Cannes). The gist of the pro-ban folk is just that - the required/expected coverings (in particular the full burka/face coverings) of Islamic WOMEN is antithetical to western values.

I stated on a different thread recently that I like to read all of the articles/editorials/news stories linked on http://www.realclearpolitics.com every day.  One of the articles this morning deals with the pro-women’s rights/anti-male “guardianship” movement in Saudi Arabia. (Go Saudi women!) Note the section below regarding the justification for male guardianship there. I suspect this is also true in most (all?) Muslim majority countries.

“Saudi women’s obedience to their male guardians within their families is part of their obedience to the absolute guardian of the state who is the ruler or king, as per the Quranic verse An-Nisa:59: “O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.”

As a western feminist secular athiest (ha - that’s a mouthful!) - this kind of thing absolutely makes my blood boil. I am in 100% agreement with this statement by Sam Harris that Islam is “the motherlode of bad ideas.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/08/saudi-arabia-women-call-end-male-guardianship.html#ixzz4I4MGsSCp

[ Edited: 22 August 2016 10:13 by LauraG]
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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22 August 2016 08:22
 
Ola - 22 August 2016 04:26 AM

Couldn’t one argue that the KKK is another religious like ideology?

That sounds like a whole new thread!

It could be debated, I guess, but…now really, stop messing around, we may find violent extremism in many places, but we can still tell the difference between a religion and a club.

You don’t have to like Islam, or even religion, to acknowledge the difference.

We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion, but we do have to be honest about it and acknowledge that Islam is, for many Muslims, spiritual. http://trueislam.com/home/

Extremism within Islam, violence especially, be it Islamists, fundamentalists, whatever, is wicked and horrific. No debate there, I think.

Just a debate about whether a Burkini is inherently wicked. 


OK, so that’s your answer, religion is a special and privileged. Why?

I should say, why is it OK to have an ideology that says kill anyone who doesn’t believe as you do if it is called religion, but an ideology that says kill anyone who is a Jew or isn’t white is not.

[ Edited: 22 August 2016 08:34 by GAD]
 
 
Ola
 
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Ola
Total Posts:  1117
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22 August 2016 08:36
 
GAD - 22 August 2016 08:22 AM
Ola - 22 August 2016 04:26 AM

Couldn’t one argue that the KKK is another religious like ideology?

That sounds like a whole new thread!

It could be debated, I guess, but…now really, stop messing around, we may find violent extremism in many places, but we can still tell the difference between a religion and a club.

You don’t have to like Islam, or even religion, to acknowledge the difference.

We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion, but we do have to be honest about it and acknowledge that Islam is, for many Muslims, spiritual. http://trueislam.com/home/

Extremism within Islam, violence especially, be it Islamists, fundamentalists, whatever, is wicked and horrific. No debate there, I think.

Just a debate about whether a Burkini is inherently wicked. 


OK, so that’s your answer, religion is a special and privileged. Why?

That’s the question you want to debate, but not the answer I gave. I said:
“We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion…,”

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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22 August 2016 08:52
 
SkepticX - 21 August 2016 07:05 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 05:05 PM
SkepticX - 21 August 2016 12:47 PM
GAD - 21 August 2016 11:35 AM

Don’t pay attention to SkepticX ...

I was being sincere on all of that, man. I can’t blame you for your response, but I was being sincere, not sarcastic (arguably acerbic perhaps). I don’t expect people to be flawless to be likeable, even when I consider a flaw pretty serious. That’s just the way we humans are—the nature of the beast—and I’m kind of a fan of my fellow humans in general.

Bullshit! What did interjecting your deluded little fantasy of me have to do with the conversation, not a fucking thing.


Extracurricular to the discussion does not equal deception or insincerity. That’s a good example of the emotive thinking I was criticizing ... and criticizing thinking (meta-criticism) is always on topic because one’s thinking patterns, particularly the problem ones, always bear on any discussion or any consideration of issues. So you’re right that it wasn’t directly germane to the topic, but it was relevant, and it was also sincere. You can of course continue to choose to believe your own sentiments though.

Again bullshit! It was an ad hominem and poisoning of the well. You should use the emotions you pretend you don’t have and ask yourself why you felt compelled to be so petty here. But I know that’s a waste of time as you are so deep in your make believe persona that honesty for you is believing your own bullshit.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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22 August 2016 08:55
 
Ola - 22 August 2016 04:10 AM

[

Oh, you guys! Get a room already. wink

Sorry :( but just like Burkini it’s need to be nipped in the bud.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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22 August 2016 09:22
 
Ola - 22 August 2016 08:36 AM
GAD - 22 August 2016 08:22 AM
Ola - 22 August 2016 04:26 AM

Couldn’t one argue that the KKK is another religious like ideology?

That sounds like a whole new thread!

It could be debated, I guess, but…now really, stop messing around, we may find violent extremism in many places, but we can still tell the difference between a religion and a club.

You don’t have to like Islam, or even religion, to acknowledge the difference.

We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion, but we do have to be honest about it and acknowledge that Islam is, for many Muslims, spiritual. http://trueislam.com/home/

Extremism within Islam, violence especially, be it Islamists, fundamentalists, whatever, is wicked and horrific. No debate there, I think.

Just a debate about whether a Burkini is inherently wicked. 


OK, so that’s your answer, religion is a special and privileged. Why?

That’s the question you want to debate, but not the answer I gave. I said:
“We don’t have to respect true faith in a god, and peaceful observance of a religion…,”

But you are just playing word games here. If a theist opens their holy book to a page and it says help the widows and orphans and they do you coo about it, when they open that same exact book and it says kill those who don’t believe as you do, kill disobedient women and children and they do you call them fundamentalists, same religion, same book, same faith. So really when you talk about respect etc for religion you mean as long as it does what you like and when it doesn’t it was just some fundamentalist true believer. You clearly have a double standard here and have given religion a special and privileged status as long as it does what you can feel good about. Why? Well you are not alone and here is my observation, people like you have tied their ego of being a good person to the believing that freedom and rights of religion are special and supporting them (as long as they do what you like) shows what a open minded and good person you are.


 

 

 
 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 09:24
 

I don’t think you can substantiate any of those claims. Can you?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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22 August 2016 09:30
 
Ola - 22 August 2016 09:24 AM

I don’t think you can substantiate any of those claims. Can you?

What I stated about religion, yes, it’s 100%. Your double standard for religion, yes, it clear in your posting. The rest, only you would know in your heart wink

 
 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 09:45
 

I’ve only just seen your edit, where you added a question:

I should say, why is it OK to have an ideology that says kill anyone who doesn’t believe as you do if it is called religion, but an ideology that says kill anyone who is a Jew or isn’t white is not.

Er…it’s not okay! I don’t think I insinuated that it was!!

I posted a link to a site called true Islam, but there are several, even many, groups of Muslims, movements if you like, that do not interpret Islam as instructing them to kill us, or as a hate machine. So it is useless to pretend that, say, ISIS, is the one true voice of Islam: are you telling all the others they are doing Islam wrong? I know you seem unable to bear it but not all Muslims are trying to kill you.


Now, as for whether I personally want to spend any more time in my life listening to anything from the Quran…and trying to decode it….I’d rather stick a fork in my eye. But I’m a realist a lot if the time and I doubt there’ll be a religion-free world in my lifetime, so I’d better get used to recognising when something is a danger and when it is a Burkini.


 

 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 09:47
 
GAD - 22 August 2016 09:30 AM
Ola - 22 August 2016 09:24 AM

I don’t think you can substantiate any of those claims. Can you?

What I stated about religion, yes, it’s 100%. Your double standard for religion, yes, it clear in your posting. The rest, only you would know in your heart wink

Nonsense.


Links, please.  Or surrender!

 
Ola
 
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Ola
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22 August 2016 09:51
 

Laura, I’m not ignoring your good points, I just keep getting distracted, as you can see.  To be cont…

 
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