Does Liberal Diversity Policies with Muslims mean having to say you’re sorry? 

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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20 September 2016 10:11
 
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SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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20 September 2016 10:31
 

Damn ... title looked interesting.

Missed the Author line though.

Oh well.

 
 
Barry0tter
 
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Barry0tter
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20 September 2016 12:52
 

I don’t really understand the question so I’ll say this.

Yes, it means continually saying sorry to muslims for not complying with Sharia, until finally you do comply.

If you mean Liberals saying sorry for foisting multiculti on the rest of us without asking when it all goes to shit, then no, Hell will freeze over first. Libtards don’t apologise because they’re always right. It will all have been the fault of “the far right” for not being nice enough to muslims.

 
Celal
 
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20 September 2016 13:23
 
Barry0tter - 20 September 2016 12:52 PM

I don’t really understand the question so I’ll say this.

Yes, it means continually saying sorry to muslims for not complying with Sharia, until finally you do comply.

If you mean Liberals saying sorry for foisting multiculti on the rest of us without asking when it all goes to shit, then no, Hell will freeze over first. Libtards don’t apologise because they’re always right. It will all have been the fault of “the far right” for not being nice enough to muslims.

Sorry - the title could have been better. It was a lame attempt at satire and take off on the “love means never having to say sorry” made famous from a stupid novel written by Erich Segal’s love story.

Liberals simply are incapable of understanding that Muslims do not wish to assimilate. That may be fine… but except they also would like to kill Americans. Liberal’s strategy is to feed the people to the crocodiles and hope they are eaten last.

 
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21 September 2016 14:22
 
Celal - 20 September 2016 01:23 PM
Barry0tter - 20 September 2016 12:52 PM

I don’t really understand the question so I’ll say this.

Yes, it means continually saying sorry to muslims for not complying with Sharia, until finally you do comply.

If you mean Liberals saying sorry for foisting multiculti on the rest of us without asking when it all goes to shit, then no, Hell will freeze over first. Libtards don’t apologise because they’re always right. It will all have been the fault of “the far right” for not being nice enough to muslims.

Sorry - the title could have been better. It was a lame attempt at satire and take off on the “love means never having to say sorry” made famous from a stupid novel written by Erich Segal’s love story.

Liberals simply are incapable of understanding that Muslims do not wish to assimilate. That may be fine… but except they also would like to kill Americans. Liberal’s strategy is to feed the people to the crocodiles and hope they are eaten last.

Ha ha not a bad analogy, I’m sure some of them believe they’re equal partners with the crocodiles but when they run out of other people to feed to them and there’s only lots of big, fat, hungry crocodiles and them left…

 

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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22 September 2016 00:37
 

of course Muslims assimilate: the US Muslim community is pretty old, and it is very different from the Middle Eastern ones (which in turn are very different from the Asian versions).

Why was bin Laden and others so upset?

Because (as they tell ad nauseam), the West corrupts: everyone in the world watches US TV, wants German cars, live in a penthouse, drink fancy cocktails. It’s easy to be religious if you think there is no choice. It’s next to impossible for teenage boys and girls anywhere to stay “pure” if they live next to a world saturated with fashion and sex.

What we see in Islam Extremism is a desperate but of course doomed attempt at reversing the clock. We’ve had drives like this countless times in history (like prohibition etc.), but they are the best sign that the old ways are dying.

With the destruction of ISIS, how many wannabee caliphates are going to be allowed to form?

 
 
Barry0tter
 
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22 September 2016 14:22
 
Twissel - 22 September 2016 12:37 AM

of course Muslims assimilate: the US Muslim community is pretty old, and it is very different from the Middle Eastern ones (which in turn are very different from the Asian versions).

Why was bin Laden and others so upset?

Because (as they tell ad nauseam), the West corrupts: everyone in the world watches US TV, wants German cars, live in a penthouse, drink fancy cocktails. It’s easy to be religious if you think there is no choice. It’s next to impossible for teenage boys and girls anywhere to stay “pure” if they live next to a world saturated with fashion and sex.

What we see in Islam Extremism is a desperate but of course doomed attempt at reversing the clock. We’ve had drives like this countless times in history (like prohibition etc.), but they are the best sign that the old ways are dying.

With the destruction of ISIS, how many wannabee caliphates are going to be allowed to form?

You are of course correct that individual muslims can assimilate, but only when their numbers are tiny. It’s also been suggested that a lot of earlier migrants to the west were among the more moderate/secular ones so it was easier for them and their offspring to adopt western values and attitudes.

However once a community gets a foothold it becomes much harder, as anybody within that community can appoint themselves a guardian of Islamic values and chide and punish people who stray, and given that the penalty for leaving Islam is death it is very difficult to break away completely when your friends and family may decide to enforce it. At best they’re usually looking at being ostracised. It’s also worth pointing out that 2nd & 3rd generation muslim immigrant families in Europe are generally considered to be more religious than their parents, which I believe comes down to numbers again.

There’s also been the Saudis paying for mosques and preachers to travel all over the world spreading the “true faith” over the last few decades so the separate communities are not as different as perhaps they once were. Malaysia and Indonesia for example seem to be becoming much more hard line. Couple that with modern communications technology and no longer will we see isolated communities doing their own thing.

As for ISIS, when they’re gone there’ll no doubt be a new group to carry the torch and KSA and Iran will still be there committing their nefarious deeds, so unfortunately the Islam problem will not just fizzle out and take care of itself.

 
sojourner
 
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sojourner
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23 September 2016 15:39
 

Although douchey, the parody story was vaguely amusing. Although regarding the picture you posted, that is obviously silly hyperbole with the every country… no rights thing… I mean I don’t know how rights stack up comparatively, but if you have the right to walk down the street and not be shot for being Christian in a Muslim majority country, you have at least some rights.


On a more serious note regarding “multiculturalism”, I am at a confused place with my feelings on minority debates in this country right now. After experiencing Safe Space culture first hand, I am kinda wary of these people defending Muslims. Muslims are still theists, and I do have my sympathies toward religion in general. That’s a whole ‘nother topic on a forum like this, but for now, just stating it as background info. (I agree that there are factions within Islamic groups who see themselves as being at war with the west, but I still say: 1. The west has always been at war with somebody, pretty much throughout its entire existence, and it certainly hasn’t always been Islamic groups, so I don’t see this as particularly unique to Islam 2. Conditions suck in many Muslim majority countries but conditions suck in much of the world, so again, I’d need more evidence to believe that this is somehow unique to Islam. So I am still sympathetic to peaceful, kind theists in general, even if there are many points of disagreement on specifics.)


So, ironically, a part of me is now kinda like “AAAK! Get your hands off of Muslims, you bizarrely ironic-in-an-unaware-way authoritarian safe spacers!!! Like back away from them this instant! Yes, it pisses me off when I think people make claims about what Islam “does” to people without evidence, but quite frankly, I think it pisses me off more to see you guys trying to lure Muslims into your van with candy. I swear to God if you get involved it will only be a matter of time before you see ISIS attacks with notes pinned nearby that say “WE ARE AT WAR WITH YOUR CULTURE… Because you did not give us a trigger warning about a movie featuring a violent man wearing a turban (sad face, tear emoji, thumbs down icon). YOU WILL FEAR US…. because you appropriated hummus and also people wear Jasmine costumes for Halloween and that is like tewtally messed up, mmm, kay?.” So I don’t know. I am caught between the authoritarianism of traditional xenophobia and the mirror image authoritarianism of safe spacers and am hoping and praying that somewhere in the middle we are all collectively noticing this situation and deciding that a middle ground of true dialogue and perspective taking is the only other alternative.

[ Edited: 23 September 2016 17:27 by sojourner]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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24 September 2016 08:05
 

NL said:

Conditions suck in many Muslim majority countries but conditions suck in much of the world, so again, I’d need more evidence to believe that this is somehow unique to Islam.

Why would it need to be unique to garner your concern?

 
 
Barry0tter
 
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24 September 2016 08:52
 
NL. - 23 September 2016 03:39 PM

Although douchey, the parody story was vaguely amusing. Although regarding the picture you posted, that is obviously silly hyperbole with the every country… no rights thing… I mean I don’t know how rights stack up comparatively, but if you have the right to walk down the street and not be shot for being Christian in a Muslim majority country, you have at least some rights.


On a more serious note regarding “multiculturalism”, I am at a confused place with my feelings on minority debates in this country right now. After experiencing Safe Space culture first hand, I am kinda wary of these people defending Muslims. Muslims are still theists, and I do have my sympathies toward religion in general. That’s a whole ‘nother topic on a forum like this, but for now, just stating it as background info. (I agree that there are factions within Islamic groups who see themselves as being at war with the west, but I still say: 1. The west has always been at war with somebody, pretty much throughout its entire existence, and it certainly hasn’t always been Islamic groups, so I don’t see this as particularly unique to Islam 2. Conditions suck in many Muslim majority countries but conditions suck in much of the world, so again, I’d need more evidence to believe that this is somehow unique to Islam. So I am still sympathetic to peaceful, kind theists in general, even if there are many points of disagreement on specifics.)


So, ironically, a part of me is now kinda like “AAAK! Get your hands off of Muslims, you bizarrely ironic-in-an-unaware-way authoritarian safe spacers!!! Like back away from them this instant! Yes, it pisses me off when I think people make claims about what Islam “does” to people without evidence, but quite frankly, I think it pisses me off more to see you guys trying to lure Muslims into your van with candy. I swear to God if you get involved it will only be a matter of time before you see ISIS attacks with notes pinned nearby that say “WE ARE AT WAR WITH YOUR CULTURE… Because you did not give us a trigger warning about a movie featuring a violent man wearing a turban (sad face, tear emoji, thumbs down icon). YOU WILL FEAR US…. because you appropriated hummus and also people wear Jasmine costumes for Halloween and that is like tewtally messed up, mmm, kay?.” So I don’t know. I am caught between the authoritarianism of traditional xenophobia and the mirror image authoritarianism of safe spacers and am hoping and praying that somewhere in the middle we are all collectively noticing this situation and deciding that a middle ground of true dialogue and perspective taking is the only other alternative.

Interesting post.

If I understand your position correctly I’d say you’re mistaking valid criticism of Islam with xenophobia. Not all muslims are foreigners for a start, but more generally speaking Islam is not like the other major religions. Bill Warner explains it far better than I can but in essence he splits it into political Islam and religious Islam, the political part being that which affects or relates to non-muslims - kafirs - which runs at 51% of the doctrine iirc. That’s the part you seem to be missing in your understanding of why the current situation with Islam is different to previous conflicts. That and the fact that muslims have emigrated to and infiltrated most non-muslim countries, to varying degrees.

Regarding your dilemma I would advise looking at it from a free speech perspective: who wants to limit free speech the most?

To me it’s obviously the safe-spacers. I highly recommend this lecture by Prof. Gad Saad on the subject. If that’s too long there are many shorter clips on YT where he addresses the same topics.

The cultural marxists who act as apologists for Islam simply see people as either oppressed or oppressors, and muslims love to play the persecuted victim so there is an unholy alliance that has created the very dangerous situation we now find ourselves in.

 
sojourner
 
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24 September 2016 09:23
 
Barry0tter - 24 September 2016 08:52 AM

Interesting post.

If I understand your position correctly I’d say you’re mistaking valid criticism of Islam with xenophobia.


To be fair, I didn’t give any specific examples, but I don’t think anyone denies that KKK-like levels of hatred, fear, and irrational xenophobia exist regarding pretty much any minority out-group you can name, Muslims included. Where you draw that line in the sand will vary, but straight-up bigotry does in fact exist, so I named it as one extreme pole (totalitarian safe-spacers and free speech stiflers being the other).

Not all muslims are foreigners for a start, but more generally speaking Islam is not like the other major religions. Bill Warner explains it far better than I can but in essence he splits it into political Islam and religious Islam, the political part being that which affects or relates to non-muslims - kafirs - which runs at 51% of the doctrine iirc. That’s the part you seem to be missing in your understanding of why the current situation with Islam is different to previous conflicts. That and the fact that muslims have emigrated to and infiltrated most non-muslim countries, to varying degrees.


Eh. Sorry, but I am simultaneously both wildly naive and optimistic, and old and cynical beyond my years in some ways. It’s always “different this time”. It was an eye blink ago that we were saying much worse about the Japanese. Now we love the Japanese. Such are the forgetful politics of conflict.

Regarding your dilemma I would advise looking at it from a free speech perspective: who wants to limit free speech the most?

To me it’s obviously the safe-spacers.


I don’t know if they actually want to limit it more or if they just irritate people more by being patronizingly duplicitous about it.

 
 
sojourner
 
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24 September 2016 09:24
 
icehorse - 24 September 2016 08:05 AM

NL said:

Conditions suck in many Muslim majority countries but conditions suck in much of the world, so again, I’d need more evidence to believe that this is somehow unique to Islam.

Why would it need to be unique to garner your concern?


It would indicate ideology is a causal variable.

 
 
icehorse
 
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24 September 2016 09:33
 
NL. - 24 September 2016 09:24 AM
icehorse - 24 September 2016 08:05 AM

NL said:

Conditions suck in many Muslim majority countries but conditions suck in much of the world, so again, I’d need more evidence to believe that this is somehow unique to Islam.

Why would it need to be unique to garner your concern?

It would indicate ideology is a causal variable.

Agreed that it would make such an assessment easier. But it’s not a necessary condition to come to that conclusion.