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“It doesn’t come from outside.”

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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22 October 2016 12:18
 

Buddhism sure seems to have become rather vexing over the past few years.  It’s as though meditation is having the reverse effect.

 
 
Throwdare
 
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Throwdare
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22 October 2016 14:06
 

If you have to pick either wisdom or meditation? What will you pick?

Why and what for?

And what do both words/terms even mean?

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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22 October 2016 15:03
 

Luckily, human mental machinery enables both of those things to occur.  The more discipline applied to the practice the more effortless the activity becomes.  When dealing with matters of subjective human perception, what possible observations are there to disagree with?  Who would be disagreeing with who?  The consistent contributions on this thread exemplify, what can only be described as, Contrarian Buddhists.  Doesn’t that run counter to the very tenets of Buddhism?

 
 
Throwdare
 
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Throwdare
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22 October 2016 15:08
 

OMG! i’m soooo happy I’m not a buddhist!

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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22 October 2016 15:18
 

I’m indifferent about not being a Buddhist.  Fortunately, Buddhism doesn’t have the monopoly on wisdom and meditation.

 
 
Throwdare
 
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Throwdare
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22 October 2016 15:26
 

I’m not an anti-buddhist either.

Edit: What is buddhism all about?

 
 
sojourner
 
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22 October 2016 20:40
 
LadyJane - 22 October 2016 12:18 PM

Buddhism sure seems to have become rather vexing over the past few years.  It’s as though meditation is having the reverse effect.


I think that’s too vague to confirm or falsify. Vexing for who? Reverse effect of what implied intended effect?

 
 
sojourner
 
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22 October 2016 20:52
 
unsmoked - 22 October 2016 10:41 AM
unsmoked - 20 October 2016 11:04 AM

In his book, ‘WAKING UP’, Sam Harris comments, “An ability to examine the contents of one’s own consciousness clearly, dispassionately, and nondiscursively, with sufficient attention to realize that no inner self exists, is a very sophisticated skill.”

Q:  What is your own definition of the self?  What are you?  Or, who are you?

Zen master Linji comments:  “If you want to be free, get to know your real self.  It has no form, no appearance, no root, no basis, no abode, but is lively and buoyant.  It responds with versatile facility, but its function cannot be located.  Therefore when you look for it you become further from it, when you seek it you turn away from it all the more.”

(Linji quoted from the book, ‘ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom’  -  translated and edited by Thomas Cleary


Ha ha, I realized today that I love these Buddhism threads because it’s like being in high school and talking about a crush. Perhaps this counts as ‘analytical meditation’ and debate, but mostly I just like the chance to add words to this favored topic.


The problem with words are that they are somewhat antithetical to the lived experience of liberation - at least so say the sages. How can one say they are going to get to know their real self, for example, if it is their real self? If you have to meet your real self it is presumably a stranger to you at the moment, meaning it is not really your real self, it is some other entity you haven’t yet met. Yet if how any person in the world feels right now is the ‘true’ self that zen masters reference, then this true self is also everything from neurotic to sociopathic to sadistic, or any state that a human mind (or any sentient mind) somewhere in the world can be in.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 October 2016 06:13
 
NL. - 22 October 2016 08:40 PM
LadyJane - 22 October 2016 12:18 PM

Buddhism sure seems to have become rather vexing over the past few years.  It’s as though meditation is having the reverse effect.

I think that’s too vague to confirm or falsify. Vexing for who? Reverse effect of what implied intended effect?

There are many aspects of meditation that yield extremely positive results.  Whether the initial effort is put forth to decrease mental stress and anxiety, minimize physical pain or simply develop ways of learning how to focus, all of these usually end up happening.  Assisting in a more thoughtful and disciplined approach to things and making it easier to adapt to our discomfort.  Reading the Zen quotes on these threads often puts me in a pleasant frame of mind.  It compels me to contemplate for awhile.  Kind of like working out a puzzle or a riddle.  An enjoyable task.  The more we develop the ability to corral our thoughts the more effective we are at sorting them out straight away.  The responses that follow the quotes don’t seem to reflect that at all.  They seem overly defensive and confused.  Combative and reactionary.  Contrary to the experience one would expect.

 
 
sojourner
 
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23 October 2016 08:56
 
LadyJane - 23 October 2016 06:13 AM
NL. - 22 October 2016 08:40 PM
LadyJane - 22 October 2016 12:18 PM

Buddhism sure seems to have become rather vexing over the past few years.  It’s as though meditation is having the reverse effect.

I think that’s too vague to confirm or falsify. Vexing for who? Reverse effect of what implied intended effect?

There are many aspects of meditation that yield extremely positive results.  Whether the initial effort is put forth to decrease mental stress and anxiety, minimize physical pain or simply develop ways of learning how to focus, all of these usually end up happening.  Assisting in a more thoughtful and disciplined approach to things and making it easier to adapt to our discomfort.  Reading the Zen quotes on these threads often puts me in a pleasant frame of mind.  It compels me to contemplate for awhile.  Kind of like working out a puzzle or a riddle.  An enjoyable task.  The more we develop the ability to corral our thoughts the more effective we are at sorting them out straight away.  The responses that follow the quotes don’t seem to reflect that at all.  They seem overly defensive and confused.  Combative and reactionary.  Contrary to the experience one would expect.


I’m not sure who you’re referring to (I admittedly have a very hard time following what Throwdare is saying, I think he’s a bit James Joyce Portrait Of The Artist but in a second language, which makes his abstractions hard to follow), but I would say that:


1) Much of how you perceive responses is in how one views the ‘goal’ of meditation. If one has one idea about how it’s supposed to work then disagreement can understandably seem problematic, alternately, if one has an another idea about how it’s supposed to work, it may seem like part of the process (thinking here of things like ‘analytical meditation’ and the Tibetan tradition of debate). I can see a case for both. If you’re in a yoga class and the teacher says to do crow pose and you start spinning in circles flapping your wings - even after the pose has been explained to you - then yeah, that just seems intentionally disruptive. There is a consensually arrived upon paradigm that all have agree to participate in there for the sake of achieving a certain outcome (maybe with some variation, but largely similar.) If you’re debating metaphysical philosophy and you say “Whatever you say is cool with me” without further question, it seems to defeat the purpose. If half of the people come to a yoga class to do yoga and half of the people come to debate the ideal sequence of yoga postures it would get a bit confusing though, ha ha!


2) Part of meditation (admittedly a part that confuses me because it sounds like “doing absolutely nothing differently so why label it meditating in the first place”, but dharma teachers seem to swear it works so I take their word for it - is accepting whatever is there. Defensive, confused, combative, reactionary, and all the rest of it. So in that sense there is no ‘wrong’ outcome to such practices, in fact, noticing them is often quite integral to practice in certain places (although there are practices that are about cultivating positive emotions, they’re just different than analytical or open observation practices, so it depends on which one you’re doing.)

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 October 2016 10:47
 

Throwdare was female and will no longer be posting here as a result of, what can only be described as, a mercy killing.  Self-absorbed rapid fire posting is not conducive to discussion forums nor does it foster the listening skills required to reach understanding.  There are patrons around who just want to do all the talking.  Some people you just can’t reach.  And off she went. 

Embarking on meditation with a ‘goal’ in mind sounds a bit self-sabotaging.  I guess everyone has a different concept of what it means to meditate and getting caught up in terms only sounds counterproductive.  It’s the personal preference of a personal practice.  We have to just hunker down and do it and find out what happens.  That’s kind of the fun part.  No expectations.  Then, if we’re lucky, any results we reap are merely a matter of positive feelings.  That, of course, is purely subjective and not what I was suggesting anyway. 

I was referring to posting habits.  And why Zen quotes conjure such negative responses.  The point of disagreement is never clear through all the discursive rigmarole.  It’s not exactly the sort of thing definitive parameters facilitate.  When we get out of our own way we make ourselves available to accept whatever we find.  And the more we accept what we find the more we figure things out.  And the more we figure things out the more it sets us free.  Unfastened from the prolonged and persistent fight within ourselves.

 
 
sojourner
 
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23 October 2016 11:27
 
LadyJane - 23 October 2016 10:47 AM

Throwdare was female and will no longer be posting here as a result of, what can only be described as, a mercy killing.  Self-absorbed rapid fire posting is not conducive to discussion forums nor does it foster the listening skills required to reach understanding.  There are patrons around who just want to do all the talking.  Some people you just can’t reach.  And off she went. 

Embarking on meditation with a ‘goal’ in mind sounds a bit self-sabotaging.  I guess everyone has a different concept of what it means to meditate and getting caught up in terms only sounds counterproductive.  It’s the personal preference of a personal practice.  We have to just hunker down and do it and find out what happens.  That’s kind of the fun part.  No expectations.  Then, if we’re lucky, any results we reap are merely a matter of positive feelings.  That, of course, is purely subjective and not what I was suggesting anyway. 

I was referring to posting habits.  And why Zen quotes conjure such negative responses.  The point of disagreement is never clear through all the discursive rigmarole.  It’s not exactly the sort of thing definitive parameters facilitate.  When we get out of our own way we make ourselves available to accept whatever we find.  And the more we accept what we find the more we figure things out.  And the more we figure things out the more it sets us free.  Unfastened from the prolonged and persistent fight within ourselves.


I didn’t know that about Throwdare, that’s too bad.


As to the rest - still don’t know what negative responses you’re talking about, but hey, allowing for different perspectives is very zen itself, I guess.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 October 2016 11:44
 

I guess I have to agree…with the teacher at that retreat.

 
 
sojourner
 
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23 October 2016 11:58
 
LadyJane - 23 October 2016 11:44 AM

I guess I have to agree…with the teacher at that retreat.


You would Leftie. wink  You guys should hang out, he’s right in your area, ha ha!

 
 
unsmoked
 
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24 October 2016 11:31
 
NL. - 22 October 2016 08:52 PM

Yet if how any person in the world feels right now is the ‘true’ self that zen masters reference, then this true self is also everything from neurotic to sociopathic to sadistic, or any state that a human mind (or any sentient mind) somewhere in the world can be in.

Zen master Mazu comments:

“Human delusion of time immemorial, deceit, pride, deviousness, and conceit, have conglomerated into one body.  That is why scripture says that this body is just made of elements, and its appearance and disappearance is just that of elements, which have no identity.  When successive thoughts do not await one another, and each thought dies peacefully away, this is called absorption in the oceanic reflection.”

Q:  Does deceit, pride, deviousness and conceit need thought to flourish?  If we reach the point where we can see the self operating, have we also reached the point where we know it’s not operating?

A conceited idea begins to dawn on us but it’s - “Like a snowflake landing on a red-hot stove.” 

(Mazu quoted from the book, ‘ZEN ESSENCE - The Science of Freedom’ - translated and edited by Thomas Cleary)

[ Edited: 24 October 2016 11:57 by unsmoked]
 
 
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