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Majority of Europeans would support a Trump-style Ban on Muslim Immigration

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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17 February 2017 07:55
 

In a new poll, a majority of Europeans - across ten countries - would support a ban on immigration from Muslim-majority countries similar to the trump’s ban:

trump style ban in europe

To carry over a question from a parallel thread, it would appear that Europe has gone past a tipping point. Most would say that the US has not (yet). It would appear that such a tipping point exists, so what should we in the US do?

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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17 February 2017 08:16
 
icehorse - 17 February 2017 07:55 AM

In a new poll, a majority of Europeans - across ten countries - would support a ban on immigration from Muslim-majority countries similar to the trump’s ban:

trump style ban in europe

To carry over a question from a parallel thread, it would appear that Europe has gone past a tipping point. Most would say that the US has not (yet). It would appear that such a tipping point exists, so what should we in the US do?

We should recognize the differences between the EU and the US.  The European Economic Disaster In Simple Words

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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17 February 2017 08:49
 
bbearren - 17 February 2017 08:16 AM
icehorse - 17 February 2017 07:55 AM

In a new poll, a majority of Europeans - across ten countries - would support a ban on immigration from Muslim-majority countries similar to the trump’s ban:

trump style ban in europe

To carry over a question from a parallel thread, it would appear that Europe has gone past a tipping point. Most would say that the US has not (yet). It would appear that such a tipping point exists, so what should we in the US do?

We should recognize the differences between the EU and the US.  The European Economic Disaster In Simple Words

: )

We can look around the world and notice that for the most part, Muslim majority countries are extremely regressive. Now we have this poll from Europe - from people who have been living with Muslims for a few decades now.

Apparently, whatever the data shows us, we couldn’t possibly conclude that it has anything to do with Islam. Thanks BB, you’ve cleared things up for me now.  ; )

 
 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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19 September 2017 11:37
 

Total nonsense.

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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19 September 2017 14:23
 
icehorse - 17 February 2017 07:55 AM

In a new poll, a majority of Europeans - across ten countries - would support a ban on immigration from Muslim-majority countries similar to the trump’s ban:

trump style ban in europe

To carry over a question from a parallel thread, it would appear that Europe has gone past a tipping point. Most would say that the US has not (yet). It would appear that such a tipping point exists, so what should we in the US do?

Your poll link doesn’t work, but doesn’t matter. I’m not surprised at such poll results. Unlike many European leaders,  most families still have children and think in terms of next generations and the immigration consequences. Not the childless leaders of Europe.  They see themselves as the last of the generational chain.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel - No children
UK Prime Minister Theresa Mary May - No children
French President Emmanuel Macron -  No children
Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven-  No children
Luxembourg’s Prime Minister Xavier Bettel - No children
Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon - No children
Italian prime minister Paolo Gentilon -  No children
President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker -  No children


These are the movers and shakers of Europe’s future for generations to come. The reckless polices of flooding Europe with Muslims and not caring about the future generations come into better focus, does it not?

 

 

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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19 September 2017 14:51
 
Celal - 19 September 2017 02:23 PM

Your poll link doesn’t work, but doesn’t matter. I’m not surprised at such poll results. Unlike many European leaders,  most families still have children and think in terms of next generations and the immigration consequences. Not the childless leaders of Europe.  They see themselves as the last of the generational chain.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel - No children
UK Prime Minister Theresa Mary May - No children
French President Emmanuel Macron -  No children
Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven-  No children
Luxembourg’s Prime Minister Xavier Bettel - No children
Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon - No children
Italian prime minister Paolo Gentilon -  No children
President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker -  No children

These are the movers and shakers of Europe’s future for generations to come. The reckless polices of flooding Europe with Muslims and not caring about the future generations come into better focus, does it not?

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau – Three children

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Trudeau
“In 2017, Trudeau criticized the executive order signed by President Donald Trump that bans refugees from seven Muslim-majority countries from visiting the United States. On social media, he displayed support for affected refugees.”

 

 
 
icehorse
 
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19 September 2017 20:56
 

Sorry about the broken link. A quick google gave me this link:

newsweek - euro muslim pan poll

nbc

and many others reported the same thing. Folks who have been living with mass Muslim immigration for several decades now, aren’t too darned pleased.

==

But zooming out, even in the best of circumstances, a policy of letting refugees immigrate is a “feel good” policy, not a real solution. The developed world can absorb only a tiny fraction of the world’s impoverished and refugees. Instead, we’d be far more compassionate and effective if we focused on support “in place”.

[ Edited: 19 September 2017 20:59 by icehorse]
 
 
Tahiti67
 
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20 September 2017 00:52
 
icehorse - 19 September 2017 08:56 PM

Sorry about the broken link. A quick google gave me this link:

newsweek - euro muslim pan poll

nbc

and many others reported the same thing. Folks who have been living with mass Muslim immigration for several decades now, aren’t too darned pleased.

==

But zooming out, even in the best of circumstances, a policy of letting refugees immigrate is a “feel good” policy, not a real solution. The developed world can absorb only a tiny fraction of the world’s impoverished and refugees. Instead, we’d be far more compassionate and effective if we focused on support “in place”.

Mark Rutte PM in the Netherlands can be added to the childless list.

Everyone knows that statistics can be manipulated and polls depend on the qualitative nature of the questions. I definitely wouldn’t trust any American views on this. If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

As for saying:

Unlike many European leaders,  most families still have children and think in terms of next generations and the immigration consequences. Not the childless leaders of Europe.  They see themselves as the last of the generational chain.

This is obviously far from an objective viewpoint, stigmatizes childless adults and undermines the ethics of politicians. I’m not buying the opinion at all. Besides “support in place” is the current policy of the EC. No one predicted Syria would run out of control and that’s when leaders had to rethink. Sharia Supremicism of violet Jihadists naturally hasn’t helped public opinion. But the majority of Europeans are more sober, realistic (in terms of future working populations to provide pension premiums) and less inclined to spread polls as ‘truth’.

[ Edited: 20 September 2017 00:58 by Tahiti67]
 
Celal
 
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20 September 2017 11:23
 
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 12:52 AM

... If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

Presumably YOU speak multiple languages, understand Muslim cultures, not rely on the Media, specifically American media. Because YOU are a Worldly person with much foreign contact and because you speak multiple languages your perceptions of others have advanced unlike those wish to curtail or ban Muslim immigration.

So share your insights with us please.

1. When a Muslim driver in Barcelona, Spain, mows down over a hundred pedestrians along a venue, killing fourteen, including a 3-year-old and his mother.  Killing 14, injuring 130, what do you make of it?

2.  In England, 3 former migrants to Europe shout “this is for Allah” as they plow into pedestrians on London Bridge and then proceed to a market, where they stab anyone within reach. Eight others are left dead.  What does your keen and sophisticated insight tell you?

3. Again in England, 22 young people blown up and 133 injured at a concert by a Muslim suicide bomber, how does intimate knowledge of the Muslim culture allow you to believe it has nothing to do with the Islamic culture?

4. ... and so on you get the picture.

What do you know and understand that provincially minded Americans don’t?

 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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20 September 2017 14:29
 
Celal - 20 September 2017 11:23 AM
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 12:52 AM

... If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

Presumably YOU speak multiple languages, understand Muslim cultures, not rely on the Media, specifically American media. Because YOU are a Worldly person with much foreign contact and because you speak multiple languages your perceptions of others have advanced unlike those wish to curtail or ban Muslim immigration.

So share your insights with us please.

1. When a Muslim driver in Barcelona, Spain, mows down over a hundred pedestrians along a venue, killing fourteen, including a 3-year-old and his mother.  Killing 14, injuring 130, what do you make of it?

2.  In England, 3 former migrants to Europe shout “this is for Allah” as they plow into pedestrians on London Bridge and then proceed to a market, where they stab anyone within reach. Eight others are left dead.  What does your keen and sophisticated insight tell you?

3. Again in England, 22 young people blown up and 133 injured at a concert by a Muslim suicide bomber, how does intimate knowledge of the Muslim culture allow you to believe it has nothing to do with the Islamic culture?

4. ... and so on you get the picture.

What do you know and understand that provincially minded Americans don’t?

Celal - 20 September 2017 11:23 AM
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 12:52 AM

... If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

Presumably YOU speak multiple languages, understand Muslim cultures, not rely on the Media, specifically American media. Because YOU are a Worldly person with much foreign contact and because you speak multiple languages your perceptions of others have advanced unlike those wish to curtail or ban Muslim immigration.

So share your insights with us please.

1. When a Muslim driver in Barcelona, Spain, mows down over a hundred pedestrians along a venue, killing fourteen, including a 3-year-old and his mother.  Killing 14, injuring 130, what do you make of it?

2.  In England, 3 former migrants to Europe shout “this is for Allah” as they plow into pedestrians on London Bridge and then proceed to a market, where they stab anyone within reach. Eight others are left dead.  What does your keen and sophisticated insight tell you?

3. Again in England, 22 young people blown up and 133 injured at a concert by a Muslim suicide bomber, how does intimate knowledge of the Muslim culture allow you to believe it has nothing to do with the Islamic culture?

4. ... and so on you get the picture.

What do you know and understand that provincially minded Americans don’t?

I don’t claim to have a sophisticated opinion. Firstly, no one denies terrorism or rise in right wing extremism and support for it. The former is deplorable, the latter a shame. However, careless comments such as “majority of Europeans” “the families, not the childless politicians… care about the future generations,”  are pointless, untrue and thus null and void. What I make of your listed terrorist attacks are two words: deplorable evil. Let me explain how I am many others in Europe see it.

I could go around calling all the atrocities the west have committed as in…. old wars and the countless dead, or their cultural issues and , such as the rapists, the drug dealers, the demand for drugs, both illegal and the opiate epidemic, the pedophiles, kids killing kids with automatic assault rifles; plus the weirdness of 1000’s of dollar fake faces, breasts, the financial fraud, tax evasions, etc etc etc, and say

“Damn those Christians! Their beliefs cause them to be bad evil people.”

Why should I differentiate between the good, bad, weird or evil? Because whether you committed or do any of them, is besides the point surely? You’re all just a Christian folk, whether religious or not, 83% of you. So it must be something to do with Christianity that there are so many ugly things in that country. Right? No. Absolutely wrong!

The USA have taken the word “Islam” which actually does have a meaning in their language and religion, and for years has broadcast through every channel, this condescending insult to 1.6 billion peoples, instead of smearing the group who deserves the hate for their evil atrocities. America is careless with words. For example, it’s always a WAR on everything. The aggression in the language is tiring and boring to say the least.

First I’d say, before we go about labelling an entire OLD culture identifying them with hateful acts, lets look at the faults in our own culture. Forget the terrorism for just one second. If millions were continually critisizing your culture, calling you backward, imbecile, moronic etc etc, and you hadn’t done anything wrong, how would you feel? Now add the terrorism and feel the shame of your own culture, and then add the double up shame of all the former criticisms.  Do you really think labelling the terrorist problem to an entire religion and culture is going to bring people out of their shell or push them in deeper? An extrovert against a introvert. Has this, since the past, changed or improved anything? Or are we hoping that a culture of people will bend down, submit, give up their religion and culture just because we feel ours is best and theirs have evil people? That’s a tall order and unrealistic.

What do you know about academics, intellectuals, scientific debates etc going on in the Arabic world or elsewhere. Or is it just non-existent because you don’t see or hear about it in the media? The individual horrific stories portrayed on the news of what’s going on in “their” countries are not daily life. Just as all the mass gun shooting in America is not a daily occurance. How many years have the average Americans lived away from their culture so they could actually view their culture objectively? Learnt another language? English will not be the Lingua Franca forever. How can anyone claim to have such knowledge of life in an entire culture, where 95% can’t even find it on the map? Let alone understand any culture different to their own if they have never lived anywhere else for several years.

I do not condone terrorism in the least. I hate it just as everyone else.  But I also deplore the manner in how the west talks in black/white with no shades of grey, because it just makes labelling so easy, doesn’t it? Yet it fuels hate, ignites division and increases immorality. What does that do towards intelligence building? The Harris army seem divided. Many on the right take things intentionally out of context, using it for their personal agendas. Adding defamatory titles and creating ugly Youtube videos with comments mocking, slamming, shaming and bullying, with complete disdain and indifference, against many peaceful, innocent Muslims. And the American left, then retaliate with all the ugly words begining with r…. b… etc. And the circus continues. Very progressive.

Things have deteriorated because of the labelling, not improved. I am not, as Sam or fans would say, an “Islamic Apologist” at all. We are large in number in Europe, those of us who believe that there are good and evil people in the world and that ISIS is evil, just as apartheid, ETA, IRA etc were. Killing innocent people is just evil. But attaching a population group’s identity to that evil is unhelpful and provides a perfect platform for people like the very eloquent Mr Trump to take ‘leadership.’  Maybe, just maybe, we’ll all be sitting here worrying and cursing about Islam and AI, and the USA might get trigger happy with Rocketman, or a meteor decides to make a home run. Who knows anything is possible.

That is why I oppose this issue. I would like to make a list of all the American shootings in kids schools because it’s atrocious, but it would take too long. Is it not deplorable that so many Innocent children and people are dead because adults won’t change laws or their culture? How do Americans react when there is any move to change their, what is it, The First Amendment? How old is it exactly?

If we look back at history where has humanity not been at each other’s throats for something. Maybe that’s exactly the problem. The problem is coming from our throats. The USA is a young country and culture. It has many, many identify problems of its own. Pointing fingers all the time at others is really not solving any of its own issues, Naturally, that doesn’t mean national security and immigration should not be a priority on the policy agenda. Finally, never forget that the Brexit was a blunt instrument of yes/no and the population were led astray by Farage who promised things that were undeniably false. Add in, indifference to voting from the young, anger at austerity and a non-qualified majority for the count. This explains the Brexit without only the immigration as being ‘the reason.’

 

 
icehorse
 
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20 September 2017 19:46
 

tahiti:

I could go around calling all the atrocities the west have committed as in…

The historical estimates I’ve seen, indicate that Christianity and Islam have about equal amounts of blood on their hands. And BTW, most of the folks on this forum aren’t particularly fond of Christianity so you won’t get a lot of traction with that approach, they’re both horrible.

tahiti:

First I’d say, before we go about labelling an entire OLD culture identifying them with hateful acts, lets look at the faults in our own culture. Forget the terrorism for just one second. If millions were continually critisizing your culture, calling you backward, imbecile, moronic etc etc, and you hadn’t done anything wrong, how would you feel?

Same argument as earlier. Second refutation, just because I’m critical of one set of ideas doesn’t mean I have to put as much energy into criticizing ALL bad ideas. Islam is a set of bad ideas, full stop, on it’s own. No other comparisons are compulsory. And, Muslims all over the world DO criticize our culture.

tahiti:

What do you know about academics, intellectuals, scientific debates etc going on in the Arabic world or elsewhere. Or is it just non-existent because you don’t see or hear about it in the media?

I anxiously await news of their discoveries or conclusions. Keep me posted.

tahiti:

That is why I oppose this issue. I would like to make a list of all the American shootings in kids schools because it’s atrocious, but it would take too long. Is it not deplorable that so many Innocent children and people are dead because adults won’t change laws or their culture? How do Americans react when there is any move to change their, what is it, The First Amendment? How old is it exactly?

Once again, you will find many people here who are quite critical of much of what’s going down in the U.S. That is a different topic, unless you think we should buy into some sort of weird “two wrongs make it right”, which seems to be what you’re pitching.

tahiti:

If we look back at history where has humanity not been at each other’s throats for something. Maybe that’s exactly the problem. The problem is coming from our throats. The USA is a young country and culture. It has many, many identify problems of its own. Pointing fingers all the time at others is really not solving any of its own issues, Naturally, that doesn’t mean national security and immigration should not be a priority on the policy agenda.

Seems like yet another variation on your theme. Speaking for myself, I’d say that I’m perfectly capable of multitasking in this regard. I can criticize Islam AND work for local solutions at the same time.

Bottom line: Islam must reform. It is a man-made invention and like all man-made inventions, it is imperfect. It needs to be upgraded to a newer version.

 
 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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20 September 2017 23:53
 
icehorse - 20 September 2017 07:46 PM

tahiti:

I could go around calling all the atrocities the west have committed as in…

The historical estimates I’ve seen, indicate that Christianity and Islam have about equal amounts of blood on their hands. And BTW, most of the folks on this forum aren’t particularly fond of Christianity so you won’t get a lot of traction with that approach, they’re both horrible.

That’s exactly my point. The word Christian doesn’t say anything.

tahiti:

First I’d say, before we go about labelling an entire OLD culture identifying them with hateful acts, lets look at the faults in our own culture. Forget the terrorism for just one second. If millions were continually critisizing your culture, calling you backward, imbecile, moronic etc etc, and you hadn’t done anything wrong, how would you feel?

Same argument as earlier. Second refutation, just because I’m critical of one set of ideas doesn’t mean I have to put as much energy into criticizing ALL bad ideas. Islam is a set of bad ideas, full stop, on it’s own. No other comparisons are compulsory. And, Muslims all over the world DO criticize our culture.

No it’s not compulsory. But it can be hypocritical when own outlandish ideas are just ignored and fingers are only pointed outwards. To the second point true. But it is not only Muslims. Don’t forget Europe, Russia and Asia.

Once again, you will find many people here who are quite critical of much of what’s going down in the U.S. That is a different topic, unless you think we should buy into some sort of weird “two wrongs make it right”, which seems to be what you’re pitching.


Exactly, two wrongs don’t make it right. Why doesn’t anything change in that area? Guns = incidents;  Everyone who has a gun is bad; Hence no change. ISIS = incidents; All Islam is bad. Problem doesn’t stop.  Bear in mind that while approximately, 10% of populations can adhere to super-dupa logical reasoning, the masses will be led by emotional charge.

Bottom line: Islam must reform. It is a man-made invention and like all man-made inventions, it is imperfect. It needs to be upgraded to a newer version.

Agree. Except I would edit and put in the word Religion, because it’s culture free. Initiating change from a neutral basis, not a psychological win-lose outcome in one’s own favour, is more capable of establishing fruitful dialogue than digging into positions. Separate the people (majority) from the problem. Mutual options for mutual gain and the debate might lead to innovative change on all camps instead of polarisation. 

This is what has kept Europe on the rails without any far right wing questionable politician becoming leader of any country.

[ Edited: 21 September 2017 00:06 by Tahiti67]
 
Celal
 
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Celal
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21 September 2017 08:52
 
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 02:29 PM
Celal - 20 September 2017 11:23 AM
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 12:52 AM

... If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

Presumably YOU speak multiple languages, understand Muslim cultures, not rely on the Media, specifically American media. Because YOU are a Worldly person with much foreign contact and because you speak multiple languages your perceptions of others have advanced unlike those wish to curtail or ban Muslim immigration.

So share your insights with us please.

1. When a Muslim driver in Barcelona, Spain, mows down over a hundred pedestrians along a venue, killing fourteen, including a 3-year-old and his mother.  Killing 14, injuring 130, what do you make of it?

2.  In England, 3 former migrants to Europe shout “this is for Allah” as they plow into pedestrians on London Bridge and then proceed to a market, where they stab anyone within reach. Eight others are left dead.  What does your keen and sophisticated insight tell you?

3. Again in England, 22 young people blown up and 133 injured at a concert by a Muslim suicide bomber, how does intimate knowledge of the Muslim culture allow you to believe it has nothing to do with the Islamic culture?

4. ... and so on you get the picture.

What do you know and understand that provincially minded Americans don’t?

Celal - 20 September 2017 11:23 AM
Tahiti67 - 20 September 2017 12:52 AM

... If more Americans spoke foreign languages, and understood the politics and cultures in individual countries of populations, not what they see or hear in the Media, specifically American media, they’d see differently. Yes, those fearful of foreigners are the provincially minded without any foreigner contact, much like mid and inland America. What you don’t know you fear. The younger generation ‘knowledge based’ work force in European capitals (20’s to 40’s), churning the economy and innovation are far more multi-cultural than the average American would think. Speaking multiple languages opens perceptions of others and this is where Britain didn’t fit in.

Presumably YOU speak multiple languages, understand Muslim cultures, not rely on the Media, specifically American media. Because YOU are a Worldly person with much foreign contact and because you speak multiple languages your perceptions of others have advanced unlike those wish to curtail or ban Muslim immigration.

So share your insights with us please.

1. When a Muslim driver in Barcelona, Spain, mows down over a hundred pedestrians along a venue, killing fourteen, including a 3-year-old and his mother.  Killing 14, injuring 130, what do you make of it?

2.  In England, 3 former migrants to Europe shout “this is for Allah” as they plow into pedestrians on London Bridge and then proceed to a market, where they stab anyone within reach. Eight others are left dead.  What does your keen and sophisticated insight tell you?

3. Again in England, 22 young people blown up and 133 injured at a concert by a Muslim suicide bomber, how does intimate knowledge of the Muslim culture allow you to believe it has nothing to do with the Islamic culture?

4. ... and so on you get the picture.

What do you know and understand that provincially minded Americans don’t?

I don’t claim to have a sophisticated opinion. Firstly, no one denies terrorism or rise in right wing extremism and support for it. The former is deplorable, the latter a shame. However, careless comments such as “majority of Europeans” “the families, not the childless politicians… care about the future generations,”  are pointless, untrue and thus null and void. What I make of your listed terrorist attacks are two words: deplorable evil. Let me explain how I am many others in Europe see it.

I could go around calling all the atrocities the west have committed as in…. old wars and the countless dead, or their cultural issues and , such as the rapists, the drug dealers, the demand for drugs, both illegal and the opiate epidemic, the pedophiles, kids killing kids with automatic assault rifles; plus the weirdness of 1000’s of dollar fake faces, breasts, the financial fraud, tax evasions, etc etc etc, and say

“Damn those Christians! Their beliefs cause them to be bad evil people.”

Why should I differentiate between the good, bad, weird or evil? Because whether you committed or do any of them, is besides the point surely? You’re all just a Christian folk, whether religious or not, 83% of you. So it must be something to do with Christianity that there are so many ugly things in that country. Right? No. Absolutely wrong!

The USA have taken the word “Islam” which actually does have a meaning in their language and religion, and for years has broadcast through every channel, this condescending insult to 1.6 billion peoples, instead of smearing the group who deserves the hate for their evil atrocities. America is careless with words. For example, it’s always a WAR on everything. The aggression in the language is tiring and boring to say the least.

First I’d say, before we go about labelling an entire OLD culture identifying them with hateful acts, lets look at the faults in our own culture. Forget the terrorism for just one second. If millions were continually critisizing your culture, calling you backward, imbecile, moronic etc etc, and you hadn’t done anything wrong, how would you feel? Now add the terrorism and feel the shame of your own culture, and then add the double up shame of all the former criticisms.  Do you really think labelling the terrorist problem to an entire religion and culture is going to bring people out of their shell or push them in deeper? An extrovert against a introvert. Has this, since the past, changed or improved anything? Or are we hoping that a culture of people will bend down, submit, give up their religion and culture just because we feel ours is best and theirs have evil people? That’s a tall order and unrealistic.

What do you know about academics, intellectuals, scientific debates etc going on in the Arabic world or elsewhere. Or is it just non-existent because you don’t see or hear about it in the media? The individual horrific stories portrayed on the news of what’s going on in “their” countries are not daily life. Just as all the mass gun shooting in America is not a daily occurance. How many years have the average Americans lived away from their culture so they could actually view their culture objectively? Learnt another language? English will not be the Lingua Franca forever. How can anyone claim to have such knowledge of life in an entire culture, where 95% can’t even find it on the map? Let alone understand any culture different to their own if they have never lived anywhere else for several years.

I do not condone terrorism in the least. I hate it just as everyone else.  But I also deplore the manner in how the west talks in black/white with no shades of grey, because it just makes labelling so easy, doesn’t it? Yet it fuels hate, ignites division and increases immorality. What does that do towards intelligence building? The Harris army seem divided. Many on the right take things intentionally out of context, using it for their personal agendas. Adding defamatory titles and creating ugly Youtube videos with comments mocking, slamming, shaming and bullying, with complete disdain and indifference, against many peaceful, innocent Muslims. And the American left, then retaliate with all the ugly words begining with r…. b… etc. And the circus continues. Very progressive.

Things have deteriorated because of the labelling, not improved. I am not, as Sam or fans would say, an “Islamic Apologist” at all. We are large in number in Europe, those of us who believe that there are good and evil people in the world and that ISIS is evil, just as apartheid, ETA, IRA etc were. Killing innocent people is just evil. But attaching a population group’s identity to that evil is unhelpful and provides a perfect platform for people like the very eloquent Mr Trump to take ‘leadership.’  Maybe, just maybe, we’ll all be sitting here worrying and cursing about Islam and AI, and the USA might get trigger happy with Rocketman, or a meteor decides to make a home run. Who knows anything is possible.

That is why I oppose this issue. I would like to make a list of all the American shootings in kids schools because it’s atrocious, but it would take too long. Is it not deplorable that so many Innocent children and people are dead because adults won’t change laws or their culture? How do Americans react when there is any move to change their, what is it, The First Amendment? How old is it exactly?

If we look back at history where has humanity not been at each other’s throats for something. Maybe that’s exactly the problem. The problem is coming from our throats. The USA is a young country and culture. It has many, many identify problems of its own. Pointing fingers all the time at others is really not solving any of its own issues, Naturally, that doesn’t mean national security and immigration should not be a priority on the policy agenda. Finally, never forget that the Brexit was a blunt instrument of yes/no and the population were led astray by Farage who promised things that were undeniably false. Add in, indifference to voting from the young, anger at austerity and a non-qualified majority for the count. This explains the Brexit without only the immigration as being ‘the reason.’

Tahiti, you are all over the map and forgot to mention the crusaders and the inquisition. I’m sure that was just an oversight. Whilst claiming not being an apologist for Islam, you are inclined to dump on the western culture just the same. No culture is perfect. Western culture is of course flawed, No one claims otherwise. What you also overlook is that despite the flaws, people from all over the World especially Muslim cultures dying to get to West. It is not other way around.  So this is absolutely very basic and need to understand this:

Not all cultures are alike.  Islam is a culture that deals in oppression, death and destruction.  When people come from the Muslim cultures and those like you for their own self aggrandizement, try and appease them by treating Islamic culture morally equal, you help spread the same inhumanity, violence to the West under the guise of multi-culturalism and prevent their assimilation to the western values.  Namely, individual freedom.

I read your rant to find something close to revealing what you understand about Islamic Culture. I found nothing! Just the usual - nonsense!  Furthermore, if you can claim “ISIS is evil”, and not be able connect to Islam, you are hopelessly lost in your arguments. Just so that this is not all a waste of time, ISIS is ISLAM.

[ Edited: 21 September 2017 10:20 by Celal]
 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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21 September 2017 11:57
 

I came in here to rectify a misleading poll and post that mentioned a falsehood about Europe that included a bias towards another culture.
I could have mentioned loads of more things indeed. Don’t think it’s worth my time as I hoped you are aware of them, of which you are because you mention them.
Western culture gets what it deserve as in Trump too. I don’t (and many others) don’t appreciate your including EU in misleading posts which try to confirm your prejudice.

Yes, no culture is perfect. But perhaps if the official causes of the now troubled and retaliatory ME hadn’t been interfered with in terms of colonisation, splitting up of territory,  (dividing cultures), toppling of regimes, the ISIS (dissented Irakese) which in splintered groups, broke away and began their death mission, we would not have so many refugees. You know what they say about karma.

I could just as easily apply your descriptive language towards Islam towards your own culture, but you don’t see that. I have always treated Muslims equally, like I treat anyone equally, because I don’t happen to have any sense of being better than anyone else. Rich or poor, educated or not, those Muslims have better values than some of what I see in posts on this forum or on Twitter, whining the same stuck record. And as for the phrase “individual freedom”..... You will never attain it until you grant others the same freedoms.

Yes I restate my case. Terrorism and ISIS are evil. Islam is not.

Peace and be wild.

 
Celal
 
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21 September 2017 12:30
 
Tahiti67 - 21 September 2017 11:57 AM

...
Yes, no culture is perfect. But perhaps if the official causes of the now troubled and retaliatory ME hadn’t been interfered with in terms of colonisation, splitting up of territory,  (dividing cultures), toppling of regimes, the ISIS (dissented Irakese) which in splintered groups, broke away and began their death mission, we would not have so many refugees. You know what they say about karma.

I could just as easily apply your descriptive language towards Islam towards your own culture, but you don’t see that. I have always treated Muslims equally, like I treat anyone equally, because I don’t happen to have any sense of being better than anyone else. Rich or poor, educated or not, those Muslims have better values than some of what I see in posts on this forum or on Twitter, whining the same stuck record. And as for the phrase “individual freedom”..... You will never attain it until you grant others the same freedoms.

Yes I restate my case. Terrorism and ISIS are evil. Islam is not.

Peace and be wild.

“Yes I restate my case. Terrorism and ISIS are evil. Islam is not. “

You made no case. You confuse claims with proof.  Basic elementary logic dictates that in order to make the above statement about ISIS and ISLAM,  you need to be able to define both to compare. You seem incapable of defining ISLAM.  Your case is based on self loathing westerner views, often seen on the internet,  with the theme “chicken come home to roost” to explain attacks on the innocents in market places, schools, shopping malls and airports. That is not a case to make. That is to state simply you understand nothing of the Islamic culture and take refuge in lazy and all too tired arguments that West got it deserved. 

The concept of “Individual freedom” is alien to Islamic Culture. That was the point which you missed. In Muslim Cultures, moral human values, or just morality as we understand it is unimportant.  Anything that promotes Islam is moral. Anything that weakens Islam is immoral!  That is what was meant that “individual freedom” is sacrificed.  That is why the carnage and devastation taking place in Muslim Countries!  So, if you bring that culture to Europe, you bring the rest with it.

I too prefer to treat everyone equally and decent as I would like to be treated. Unlike you, I know the difference between Muslim and Islam. You do have something in common with the Muslims at large, They are taught to hate and loathe the West, denouncing it as being shallow, decadent, and irreligious. You are in good company.

 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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21 September 2017 23:15
 

You made no case. You confuse claims with proof.  Basic elementary logic dictates that in order to make the above statement about ISIS and ISLAM,  you need to be able to define both to compare. You seem incapable of defining ISLAM.  Your case is based on self loathing westerner views, often seen on the internet,  with the theme “chicken come home to roost” to explain attacks on the innocents in market places, schools, shopping malls and airports. That is not a case to make. That is to state simply you understand nothing of the Islamic culture and take refuge in lazy and all too tired arguments that West got it deserved.

You can save me the philosophical verbosity. My views are based on experience and views of the west were in place long before Islam became headline news. I’m talking around about 1990. I do not have to explain terrorist attacks I have nothing to do with.  Neither do Muslims. 

What is Islam? It’s a religion, which name means ‘surrending to God’ in Arabic. It is followed by those who have cultural roots in populations from the Middle East and Arabian blanket across Africa. Original etymology of the word Islam derives from two words, one of them ‘peace’.  The religion stems from a prophet Muhammed who +/- 1500 years ago brought scattered nations together, who were all worshipping different gods and continually at each other’s throats in war, pillage, and crimes. Muhammed was persecuted just like Jesus, who was crucified under Roman law, because he had new ideas and the idea of “oneness” was innovative at the time. They both threatened social stability. As Islam grew it resulted in many intellectuals gathering to Baghdad, and a new culture and religion was born. Ancient texts being translated into Arabic and its intellectuals were from diverse regions, not only the ME. That was their golden age. Muhammed was the only author of the Quran, whereas the bible has many authors. (who I’m sure were on mushrooms). Politically, both religions brought people together in a belief in an afterworld. It brought comfort to societies who were being persecuted at the time and long after. So these beliefs form the foundational basis of a culture which has been around for a long time. They brought many people comfort in barbaric ages and they aim to maximise their morality on earth by surrendering to God.

As long as they don’t bother me, I don’t mind. That’s what we call “individual freedom”. The right to believe what you choose. But of course, it’s hard for an American whose culture is only somewhat 400 years old to understand the roots of a culture that is almost quadruple in years.

The concept of “Individual freedom” is alien to Islamic Culture. That was the point which you missed. In Muslim Cultures, moral human values, or just morality as we understand it is unimportant.  Anything that promotes Islam is moral. Anything that weakens Islam is immoral!  That is what was meant that “individual freedom” is sacrificed.  That is why the carnage and devastation taking place in Muslim Countries!  So, if you bring that culture to Europe, you bring the rest with it.

You want evidence and proof?  Please prove the underlined to me. Please also define freedom and morality. Carnage and devastation has taken place in different parts of the world throughout history and will no doubt continue to do so. What do you call what happened in Germany, Rwanda, southern Africa, Cambodia etc etc. Even more current, Mynamar. Who is to blame in Mynamar? If Islam is all you say it is, why are there Islamic Muslims from it’s geographical place and culture, who read the Quaran (or not), working in Europe, male and female, who come from their continent being computer scientists, dentists, doctors etc? Or how do they become lawyers, mayors, politicians etc, sometimes being more educated that the local culture in their European countries? Could it be that the worst of a nation come from specific groups from specific countries, which one is to lazy to differentiate between because, for example, they might make a fool out of themselves calling it “Nambia”?  Which reminds me. Why would the USA initiate a Muslim ban but exclude certain countries, such as Saudi Arabia? I think it’s that B word. You know… bias.

I too prefer to treat everyone equally and decent as I would like to be treated. Unlike you, I know the difference between Muslim and Islam. You do have something in common with the Muslims at large, They are taught to hate and loathe the West, denouncing it as being shallow, decadent, and irreligious. You are in good company.

If you would like to treat everyone equally, then you might want to begin by not judging an entire culture of people with one stroke of the brush and look at people individually. It’s natural to be proud of heritage and cultural roots, it’s entirely normal. However, there are also people who sometimes hate their country so they leave, or they are persecuted and do so.

One doesn’t need to be taught to know that a generalisation of American culture is that its shallow, decadent and irreligious as opposed to Arabic which is religious, oppressive and strange, (in Western understanding) About the ir/religious I don’t care one way or the other. You should be free to believe in what you want to believe in.  But I don’t expect extremists after sensation to understand that just 70 years ago someone in EU went about labelling Jews as ‘offensive people’ and it didn’t turn out well.  A war of ideas is not a good idea. Maybe you guys need to think of some gradations to the word ‘war.’

Respect in life is important and in dealing with your fellow beings, People are real, they are not some ant colony, where you can stamp out their culture (no matter how awful), because a % of their kind are monsters. This is the problem with extremism. I don’t tell Americans how to live, it’s none of my business. Even though I see there culture as a young teenager, full of youth and vitality, but also a silly young puppy, or like Narcissis. Gazing at its reflection, believing that everyone finds it as beautiful as it finds itself, except it is completely unaware that all they are actually perceiving is a reflection of a pool, of which there are 166 other pools and Narcisses gazing at themselves. Some of them are older and have experience, which always makes change harder.

 
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