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Majority of Europeans would support a Trump-style Ban on Muslim Immigration

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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22 September 2017 10:49
 
Tahiti67 - 21 September 2017 11:15 PM

What is Islam? It’s a religion, which name means ‘surrending to God’ in Arabic. It is followed by those who have cultural roots in populations from the Middle East and Arabian blanket across Africa. Original etymology of the word Islam derives from two words, one of them ‘peace’.  The religion stems from a prophet Muhammed who +/- 1500 years ago brought scattered nations together, who were all worshipping different gods and continually at each other’s throats in war, pillage, and crimes. Muhammed was persecuted just like Jesus, who was crucified under Roman law, because he had new ideas and the idea of “oneness” was innovative at the time. They both threatened social stability. As Islam grew it resulted in many intellectuals gathering to Baghdad, and a new culture and religion was born. Ancient texts being translated into Arabic and its intellectuals were from diverse regions, not only the ME. That was their golden age. Muhammed was the only author of the Quran, whereas the bible has many authors. (who I’m sure were on mushrooms). Politically, both religions brought people together in a belief in an afterworld. It brought comfort to societies who were being persecuted at the time and long after. So these beliefs form the foundational basis of a culture which has been around for a long time. They brought many people comfort in barbaric ages and they aim to maximise their morality on earth by surrendering to God.

Let me try and communicate with you using some common grounds.

You led me to believe you speak multiple languages and have experience with foreign cultures.  So do I.  Hence, you should appreciate it when I say that as sophisticated as online language translators such as “Google Translator” have become, they can’t reliably deliver accurate translations of a paragraph from one language to another.  In fact, there are some built-in limitations imposed on the translators. Some grammatical tenses that exist in one language does NOT exist in another.  There are languages where nouns are ALWAYS gender neutral, not to mention translation software don’t always catch the thousands of common phrases (like “get over it” or “hard to pull off”) that exist in any language or often translators aren’t sophisticated enough to accommodate the syntax of longer texts… and so on. 

So, if people try to use the language translator to pass themselves off as being fluent in a language which they aren’t, it will be painfully obvious to those who are intimately familiar with the language.  I trust you will agree with me so far.

Likewise, I could instantly detect you know nothing about Islam. Typically, westerners make the mistake of claiming to know Islam because they have known a few or a lot of Muslims, failing to realize “most” Muslims do not know their religions at all. 85% of Muslims Worldwide pray in a language they don’t even understand. Adding to this, Muslims adherence to their religion vary as it does with any other religion. Some Muslims have nothing to do with their religion, simply identify as “Muslim” like rooting for Manchester United or Real Madrid.  That is not to say Islam is like any other religion. It isn’t. Without having to study its scriptures, you need only to look at Societies where a clear Muslim majority exists and observe how the “minorities” are treated. Minority abuses are natural consequence of having Islam as the State religion, even with a specific “sect”. Not just any flavor. 

I suspect none of this will register.  Anyway, take care!

 

 
EN
 
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EN
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22 September 2017 11:04
 
Celal - 22 September 2017 10:49 AM

Without having to study its scriptures, you need only to look at Societies where a clear Muslim majority exists and observe how the “minorities” are treated. Minority abuses are natural consequence of having Islam as the State religion, even with a specific “sect”. Not just any flavor.

This is a critical point.  I’ve read the Qur’an a couple of time using different translations, but that is not really what informs my views on Islam.  Those views come more from observing life and culture in places where Islam is the only or the clearly dominant faith.  Other than Turkey, none of them have truly liberal democracies (democratic institutions with protected individual liberties), and Turkey is definitely regressing on this point.  It’s hard for me to imagine a truly free Muslim society.  That tells me more about the religion than anything else.

 
Celal
 
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22 September 2017 14:24
 
EN - 22 September 2017 11:04 AM
Celal - 22 September 2017 10:49 AM

Without having to study its scriptures, you need only to look at Societies where a clear Muslim majority exists and observe how the “minorities” are treated. Minority abuses are natural consequence of having Islam as the State religion, even with a specific “sect”. Not just any flavor.

This is a critical point.  I’ve read the Qur’an a couple of time using different translations, but that is not really what informs my views on Islam.  Those views come more from observing life and culture in places where Islam is the only or the clearly dominant faith.  Other than Turkey, none of them have truly liberal democracies (democratic institutions with protected individual liberties), and Turkey is definitely regressing on this point.  It’s hard for me to imagine a truly free Muslim society.  That tells me more about the religion than anything else.

Thanks for highlighting the salient point. How the power is used when in majority against the minorities is most revealing.

Yes, Turkey had been known as a bright spot in the Muslim World as an example of secular democracy.  That was more a wishful thinking than reality or perhaps as compared to the others like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. In truth,  when the Ottoman Empire collapsed and Turkish Republic was born, it simply centralized the Islamic Authority in Ankara whilst maintaining a State Religion of Sunni Islam. The minorities like Alevis were always persecuted and as recently as 1993, a group of Turkish intellectuals, mostly Alevis, including prominent writers, musicians, poets and artists, had gathered for a cultural festival at the downtown Hotel Madimak in the city of Sivas, only to be burned alive by a mob of Sunni Muslims. They torched the hotel where they had stayed and the assault took 8 hours, without any intervention from the police, military or fire department. Public watching live on TV.

35 people, mostly Alevi intellectuals as well as a Dutch anthropologist, had died, along with two hotel employees.

This was 1993. Long before Erdogan was a household name in Turkey.  I do agree that religious oppression has gotten worse under the current Administration.

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Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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23 September 2017 00:36
 

Likewise, I could instantly detect you know nothing about Islam. Typically, westerners make the mistake of claiming to know Islam because they have known a few or a lot of Muslims, failing to realize “most” Muslims do not know their religions at all. 85% of Muslims Worldwide pray in a language they don’t even understand. Adding to this, Muslims adherence to their religion vary as it does with any other religion. Some Muslims have nothing to do with their religion, simply identify as “Muslim” like rooting for Manchester United or Real Madrid.  That is not to say Islam is like any other religion. It isn’t. Without having to study its scriptures, you need only to look at Societies where a clear Muslim majority exists and observe how the “minorities” are treated. Minority abuses are natural consequence of having Islam as the State religion, even with a specific “sect”. Not just any flavor.

No where did I claim to be any expert on Islam and I told you on 20/9 that I do not have a sophisticated opinion. I deliberately didn’t go to the Islam threads etc, I answered and responded to a claim that a majority of Europeans were now in support of a Muslim ban. I claim, that if you speak multiple languages, and are active in political life, you will know that the opening claim is incorrect and a perfect example of misleading virtual reality which does not reflect opinion of reality in the majority of European opinion,

Secondly, I do not need to have a massive knowledge of Islam to be able to discern what is morally just or unjust, or to recognise cultural bullying. From either: a minority abroad, i.e. Muslims in a western world now pointing fingers at their own foik; westerners paraphrasing and twisting what they claim to be true because they “heard” it. I oppose unfair stigmatism where innocent people are being continually and wrongly identified as being ‘more backward’ (pick your adjective) due to their cultural background or their life choices. Or the west’s sense of superiority, particularly America, who in their young democracy, think they can change an entire ancient religion and culture, using a pointless strategy of repetitive insult.

I do not condone or deny that minorities are treated badly in ME countries (as some are in non-Arabic countries too), nor that it is tied to the integration of politics and religion. But what i have observed in the last 27 years, or back to the 80’s when they were financially supporting Bin Laden, is that the more the west interferes, the worse it gets. What a huge sense of superiority thinking that we can save ‘others’ in their difficult circumstances, when so many are suffering right under our nose, in our own democracies which are barely flawless.

Take the word Islam, which is an unconscious, cultural identity of what once brought groups of people together, out of the debate. Use ‘religion’, slam the terrorism, be a shining example of political and economical stability and continue to advocate for human rights. That should be the goal. How can we objectively claim to know ‘happiness levels’ in people on another continent, when on our own, materialism has barely resulted in “happier people?” Arabic and Western cultures are like chalk and cheese, but Big Brother USA,a baby democracy, that had no real culture, but had to create it starting 400 years ago is expecting to appease or change an ancient world tradition, by identifying the majority of the population to terrorism. Worse, they call it the War on Terrorism. If you tell me that’s wise then I don’t know. How does that show we’re better? It’s culturally unintelligent.  Unless of course, the Saudi’s are major stakeholders in the media and have an adder under the grass strategy. Like the Russia social media army who set up fake accounts to put the west at each others’ throats, then sit back and enjoy the show.

As language influences thought and perception, (Sapir-Whorf), one should then only be glad that most Muslims don’t understand the language they are reading. By the same token, imagine the negative effect the West’s identifying terrorism to the whole of Islam has on all those who are either religious or have no affinity with it. Can you prove to me that this labelling is effective in bringing about change? I doubt it. The language argument also counters the argument of all Islam being proactively aggressively, if they don’t even understand their language. Point is, it’s glaringly obvious that all religions initial grounding aim at peace and love. Just as in the Bhagavad-Gita where spiritual advice is being imparted in the middle of battle between two tribes, Muhammed and others were fleeing persecution and forming a new society in their history. Applying historical violence to modern day purpose is pretty much what the violent Jihadists do. Wouldn’t it be nice if the West, criticizing a religion founded in violent times, took the word ‘war’ out of the equation. so that any possiblities of influencing thinking would result in a new culture being born out of peaceful change.

I am against hate speech against Muslims (and falsities being spread) because I see people as human beings first, not their religion or background. I recommend reading Frans Timmermans VP to the EC message to the Muslim community in Europe, yesterday on the occasion of Islamic New Year & the Action Day on countering Hate Speech against Muslims. Words matter. The pen is mightier than the sword long term.

Telling me that Islam or Muhammed was/is only about violence and suppression will definitely fall on deaf ears of many. Hamza Yusuf has a lot of wisdom. I agree when he says “Muslims are not a major threat to the USA, guns are far bigger a threat.”  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prq33NUIlHQ&index=8&list=PLc0q2hrueYP8zY6KHzvywh_aXF2dbjctJ  As long as the USA over-exaggerate their cause to get what they want, they will only fuel the violently minded, with little concern for what lies between them and the Middle East. What you pay attention to gets bigger and it most certainly has. We’ll see how the dialogue between Humpty Dumpty and Rocketman pan out.

 

 
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Phate
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27 September 2017 07:21
 
Tahiti67 - 23 September 2017 12:36 AM

Take the word Islam, which is an unconscious, cultural identity of what once brought groups of people together, out of the debate. Use ‘religion’, slam the terrorism, be a shining example of political and economical stability and continue to advocate for human rights. That should be the goal. How can we objectively claim to know ‘happiness levels’ in people on another continent, when on our own, materialism has barely resulted in “happier people?” Arabic and Western cultures are like chalk and cheese, but Big Brother USA,a baby democracy, that had no real culture, but had to create it starting 400 years ago is expecting to appease or change an ancient world tradition, by identifying the majority of the population to terrorism. Worse, they call it the War on Terrorism. If you tell me that’s wise then I don’t know. How does that show we’re better? It’s culturally unintelligent.  Unless of course, the Saudi’s are major stakeholders in the media and have an adder under the grass strategy. Like the Russia social media army who set up fake accounts to put the west at each others’ throats, then sit back and enjoy the show.

 


First, I do agree that change takes time…a lot of time, and that it may be several generations before the influence of western culture moderates the Muslim world to a level satisfactory to the west. The west has done a crappy job underestimating the challenge and managing expecations in this regard.

Second, I also agree that the “war on terrorism” needlessly gets people back up and might be too aggressive of an approach.

Third, I disagree with the argument that: the US should focus on guns (or drunk driving, or drug overdose) because they kill more people than terrorists. First, why can’t we focus on both. Second, part of the reason we focus on terrorism is because we, individuals, cannot influence whether we are affected by it the same way we can decide to not own a gun, not live in states where guns are prevalent, etc. Same reason we focus more on plane crashes than car crashes.

Finally, I agree with the notion quoted above that the west should lead by example. But this is not a “do as we say, not as we do” situation. No country will ever be a perfect utopia that stands up to all criticism. So even if the west has warts, it is still an improvement over more intolerant societies. Therefore, it is a “do as we do” situation, because even if intolerant societies progressed as far as the average western society, including the flaws, it would still be a major step in the right direction, assuming that you judge direction by economic prosperity, freedom, well-being, education, opportunity, etc.

So correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the west has no right to criticise intolerance in Muslim countries?

Let’s look at some specific examples.

Nigeria
Pop. 186 Mil.
% that support ISIS = 14%
Total ISIS Support = 26 million people
Annual US Aid = 703 Million

Indonesia
Pop. 260 Mil.
% that support ISIS = 4%
Total ISIS Support = 10 million people
Annual US Aid = 143 Million

Sources:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/spends-billion-foreign/
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/id.html

Are you saying that in exchange for the 846 billion in aid provided to these two countries in aid every year that we have no right to ask that they do something about the 36 million people in their countries that support ISIS?

I am truly curious to know what, if any, pressure from the west on Muslim countries is acceptable in your mind?

 
Tahiti67
 
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Tahiti67
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28 September 2017 13:44
 

Third, I disagree with the argument that: the US should focus on guns (or drunk driving, or drug overdose) because they kill more people than terrorists. First, why can’t we focus on both. Second, part of the reason we focus on terrorism is because we, individuals, cannot influence whether we are affected by it the same way we can decide to not own a gun, not live in states where guns are prevalent, etc. Same reason we focus more on plane crashes than car crashes.

You can focus on both. I meant focusing on those because they are what prevent other cultures, from wanting to be anything like western values. Laws of intolerant societies are probably not even considered as intolerant or wrong by many in those countries with no international experience, because they live in a parallel universe where those laws are considered normal or part of the cultural fabric. So just as there is indoctrinated propaganda of what it’s like in other countries in your media which is very locally biasd, it will be the same I think in the ME. So imagine the worst of western values under the magnifying glass, and then imagine yourself being in a ME country, with no western life experience. Would you find the will to change your life long traditions because your ‘normal laws’ are considered unethical, by the ‘enemy,’ whose values are seemingly, ‘as bad’ as your own?

So correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the west has no right to criticise intolerance in Muslim countries?

No, you can, but i just disagree with the way the west does it. Here is a c/p of my argument as to why. Please note, it is not a direct answer to you but a final reply to someone after almost a week of exchange in comments on a SH You-tube video. I’m done with it now.

I do not think putting an entire continent of culture, introverted by nature, in the spotlight, criticizing their heritage, as in the west’s current strategy, is going to result in the progress the west or these intellectuals aim to achieve. No wonder there is resistance from those being spotlighted. Respecting or understanding other cultures has never been the white man’s strong point. The problem is the laws that fall under religious belief. Why are these laws not identified with Human Rights Issues and debated in context of individual country realities? I suppose because its easier to put an entire peoples’ history and belief system as “treacherous poor and backward” in a box with one label. It is my opinion that this is what causes delay in progress, escalates the problems and increases their suffering (those under threats of violent war everyday), even more so now with new leaders of zero EQ, which is what America gave the world in terms of leadership. Whilst intellectuals and others in the free world, merrily use their right to freedom of speech, engaging in factual fellatio. Alas, so many in diabolical fashion, that it makes it virtually impossible for the left to have a discussion based on integrity with the right.

To conclude: Whilst not religious, I believe in the freedom for others to respect or love their culture and to believe in their spiritual values if they feel worthfully served by them. Secondly, the West needs to learn to respect cultures other than its own and to understand that their western mindset will not change cultures just because they shout louder using their version of facts. Thirdly. Economic sanctions hurt people more than governments just as these moral sanctions do. The left prefer virtuous dialogue in this debate and the right choose loud, finger pointing blame. This does not mean that the left are in agreement with an immoral issue, or that they don’t fight it. Instead they choose the path of lesser evil. It may take longer, but lasting change never occurred rapidly, and if it did, it was commanded by the barrel of a gun, often leading to more chaos and suffering. Will we ever learn from history?

In summary: “Wisdom is not in words, Wisdom is meaning within the words.” K. Gibran. As Islam means so much to so many (intellectually and emotionally,) the west throwing the word around like silicone soul bubblegum is naturally going to encounter resistance from those under the spotlight. Regardless of whether the message comes from heartfelt intent from their own kind, or demonstrative insult from others unlike them.  The horse (mind) does sip, and dip into different fields of thought throughout a lifetime. Those differences and diversity being the encouragement to change. Force-feeding one to drink from one stream (facts) will have a negative effect. Meaning, using or seeing people only as capable of understanding facts or not, completely disregards who or what people are in terms of their cultural collective consciousness as a group, plus undermines their individual experience of being human.

Nigeria
Pop. 186 Mil.
% that support ISIS = 14%
Total ISIS Support = 26 million people
Annual US Aid = 703 Million

Indonesia
Pop. 260 Mil.
% that support ISIS = 4%
Total ISIS Support = 10 million people
Annual US Aid = 143 Million

Are you saying that in exchange for the 846 billion in aid provided to these two countries in aid every year that we have no right to ask that they do something about the 36 million people in their countries that support ISIS?

Nice stats thank-you. When it comes to foreign aid, I think it’s a total hypocrisy. And EU does it too by the way. Because while they’re sending aid to countries, they’re taking it back through billions in MN’s corporate tax structures. Here they rob country governments of tax income, using BEPS (base erosion profit shifting) and governments lose revenue which they could use for their citizens. Talk about old laws!! Some and many tax treaties are over 100 years old, and the Big 4 use every loophole in the book. All countries suffer but particularly 3rd world. Deals are made with those who do not have first world knowledge because they’re behind or with African fraudulent leaders who don’t care about their citizens anyway. 

So Yes you have the right to ask for decency back if aid is given. However, if the MN"s of the world, which are predominantly American, continue robbing 3rd world countries of income, taking back what they give, then I do not see the morality in the equation. 

Some of that aid is for medicine and contraception. Trump withdrew his contributions to third world aid earlier this year.  A Labour minister in my country thus set up a fund in January and she has raised 300 million since, from global donations. It’s called “Right to Choose” meaning, woman can choose whether they want to bear children or not. Trump when it comes to tax or anything in business I presume, will do everything in HIS favour. Forgive me if I have zero sympathy. As long as first world countries continue to steal from the third world in terms of tax dollars (and my country does it too)  the refugee problem will from economically poor countries.

I am truly curious to know what, if any, pressure from the west on Muslim countries is acceptable in your mind?

Yes it is, it is the only hope of change. Only I do not agree culturally with how it is done. I hope my c/p from the TY video covers that. Albeit somewhat heated as it was the end of a long exchange.  There are tax podcasts and The Tax Justice Network online (Richard Murphy) if you’d like to read more into the world tax labyrinth.

[ Edited: 28 September 2017 13:58 by Tahiti67]
 
icehorse
 
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15 October 2017 08:21
 

An excerpt from the link below:

- Long touted as a beacon of Muslim tolerance and moderation, Indonesia joined other repressive Muslim nations in May when it sentenced the Christian governor of Jakarta, known as “Ahok,” to a two-year prison term on the charge that he committed “blasphemy” against Islam.

- The blasphemy accusation is based on a video that Ahok made, in which he told voters that they were being deceived if they believed that Koran 5:51, as his opposition said, requires Muslims not to vote for a non-Muslim when there are Muslim candidates available. The Koran passage states: “O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you—then indeed, he is one of them.”

==

IMO, those two paragraphs speak for themselves. The only thing I’d like to add is that given this sort of incident, it seems more and more clear that the strength of Islam’s political arm adds credence to the orientation that Islam is a totalitarian ideology that includes a religious facet.

blashemy in Indonesia

 
 
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