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Canada anti-islamophobia motion M103

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 March 2017 22:26
 

Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but it seems like I brought this up a few weeks ago and was told it wasn’t real. Maybe it still isn’t or maybe things have changed, but this motion seems to have passed, so now the Canadian government will be taking steps to shut down “Islamophobia”.

Really people, still nothing to see here?

m103 motion

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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26 March 2017 07:12
 
icehorse - 25 March 2017 10:26 PM

Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but it seems like I brought this up a few weeks ago and was told it wasn’t real. Maybe it still isn’t or maybe things have changed, but this motion seems to have passed, so now the Canadian government will be taking steps to shut down “Islamophobia”.

Really people, still nothing to see here?
m103 motion

From article:

Canadian politicians have passed a motion that condemns Islamophobia and requests that the government recognise the need to “quell the public climate of fear and hate”.  The non-binding motion, which condemns “Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination”, passed on Thursday among a divided parliament.  It asks a parliamentary committee to launch a study on how the government could address the issue, with recommendations due in mid-November.  The study should look at how to “develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination, including Islamophobia,” the motion says.  Liberal MP, Iqra Khalid introduced the motion, also referred to as M-103, last December, but it gained significance after the January attack on a Quebec mosque that left six Muslim men dead.

Text of Motion:
That, in the opinion of the House, the government should: (a) recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear; (b) condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination and take note of House of Commons’ petition e-411 and the issues raised by it; and (c) request that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a study on how the government could (i) develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination including Islamophobia, in Canada, while ensuring a community-centered focus with a holistic response through evidence-based policy-making, (ii) collect data to contextualize hate crime reports and to conduct needs assessments for impacted communities, and that the Committee should present its findings and recommendations to the House no later than 240 calendar days from the adoption of this motion, provided that in its report, the Committee should make recommendations that the government may use to better reflect the enshrined rights and freedoms in the Constitution Acts, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

This does seem to be reason for concern.  I don’t understand what is meant by “non-binding motion”.  It does sound like it is about launching a study, but don’t know what the other implications could be.  Although this bill includes the phrase “all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination”, it does specifically name Islamophobia.  The recent horrible attack on the Quebec mosque seems to have caused this reaction.

Jefe, can you help with interpretation/analysis?

 

 
 
icehorse
 
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26 March 2017 07:50
 

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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26 March 2017 08:18
 
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 March 2017 08:28
 
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:18 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

When you say “minority”, do you mean a person’s genes or a person’s ideas? When you say “discriminate”, should we be free to shun and marginalize Neo-Nazis? Same with “hate”, I hate Neo-Nazis, do you? I hate the KKK, do you?

We MUST be free to loudly and persistently criticize bad ideas. Harris was correct last year when he dubbed Islam “a motherlode of bad ideas”. Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim. As we have made it embarrassing to be a Neo-Nazi or KKK member.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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26 March 2017 08:32
 
icehorse - 26 March 2017 08:28 AM
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:18 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

When you say “minority”, do you mean a person’s genes or a person’s ideas? When you say “discriminate”, should we be free to shun and marginalize Neo-Nazis? Same with “hate”, I hate Neo-Nazis, do you? I hate the KKK, do you?

We MUST be free to loudly and persistently criticize bad ideas. Harris was correct last year when he dubbed Islam “a motherlode of bad ideas”. Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim. As we have made it embarrassing to be a Neo-Nazi or KKK member.

My goal (it can be difficult) is to try to hate only hateful ideas - not people.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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26 March 2017 08:42
 
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Fallacy of misplaced concreteness.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 March 2017 08:49
 
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:32 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 08:28 AM
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:18 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

When you say “minority”, do you mean a person’s genes or a person’s ideas? When you say “discriminate”, should we be free to shun and marginalize Neo-Nazis? Same with “hate”, I hate Neo-Nazis, do you? I hate the KKK, do you?

We MUST be free to loudly and persistently criticize bad ideas. Harris was correct last year when he dubbed Islam “a motherlode of bad ideas”. Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim. As we have made it embarrassing to be a Neo-Nazi or KKK member.

My goal (it can be difficult) is to try to hate only hateful ideas - not people.

Fair enough, and perhaps I should amend what I said. To me it’s a very, very fine line to know what I think about a Neo-Nazi. I know I hate his ideas - full stop. Do I actually “hate” the Neo-Nazi? I guess not, I certainly would hope to find a compassionate way to rid this fellow of his ideas. If that’s not possible, I would support shunning of the person. Is that hateful?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 March 2017 08:51
 
burt - 26 March 2017 08:42 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Fallacy of misplaced concreteness.

Certainly yours is an easy stance to take, and a popular one. But notice this; with these two motions in the news, the very term “Islamophobia” has gained ground in being normalized. It’s that much closer to being viewed as a real thing. This is a loss for secularism and a gain for Islamists. You might claim it’s a small gain, but I think secularism cannot give any ground.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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26 March 2017 09:06
 
burt - 26 March 2017 08:42 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Fallacy of misplaced concreteness.


That immediately leapt out at me as well.

Islam is an idea—a mental construct, not a Thing at all in any sense independent of the mind. As a product of the mind it’s all about whatever mind(s) it inhabits. Recognizing this is a fundamental perspective and perception issue. Humans will first be humans, and any ideologies will always be filtered accordingly. To conclude the ideology drives the humans who embrace it is a failure to understand the basic nature of both.

 
 
icehorse
 
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26 March 2017 09:10
 
SkepticX - 26 March 2017 09:06 AM
burt - 26 March 2017 08:42 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Fallacy of misplaced concreteness.


That immediately leapt out at me as well.

Islam is an idea—a mental construct, not a Thing at all in any sense independent of the mind. As a product of the mind it’s all about whatever mind(s) it inhabits. Recognizing this is a fundamental perspective and perception issue. Humans will first be humans, and any ideologies will always be filtered accordingly. To conclude the ideology drives the humans who embrace it is a failure to understand the basic nature of both.

I’m not so sure I agree. If you can step back and take a relativist stance, you can kind of admire such ideologies. They are ideas that have been constructed to survive from generation to generation. That’s a pretty amazing accomplishment. I think that what you’re ignoring here is the horrible power of indoctrination. When you indoctrinate kids, then the ideologies can indeed drive the human.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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26 March 2017 09:22
 
icehorse - 26 March 2017 08:49 AM
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:32 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 08:28 AM
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:18 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

When you say “minority”, do you mean a person’s genes or a person’s ideas? When you say “discriminate”, should we be free to shun and marginalize Neo-Nazis? Same with “hate”, I hate Neo-Nazis, do you? I hate the KKK, do you?

We MUST be free to loudly and persistently criticize bad ideas. Harris was correct last year when he dubbed Islam “a motherlode of bad ideas”. Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim. As we have made it embarrassing to be a Neo-Nazi or KKK member.

My goal (it can be difficult) is to try to hate only hateful ideas - not people.

Fair enough, and perhaps I should amend what I said. To me it’s a very, very fine line to know what I think about a Neo-Nazi. I know I hate his ideas - full stop. Do I actually “hate” the Neo-Nazi? I guess not, I certainly would hope to find a compassionate way to rid this fellow of his ideas. If that’s not possible, I would support shunning of the person. Is that hateful?

I really don’t think it’s fair to compare neo-Nazis to Muslims.  I don’t think I’ve ever a met a neo-Nazi, but I suspect they would make their hateful ideas evident.  I know several Muslims, not intimately, but well enough.  Without exception, they have been like everyone else; I don’t see hate in any of them.  Shunning them in any way would be outright discrimination.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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26 March 2017 09:35
 

The sky is not falling.

 
 
Ola
 
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26 March 2017 09:48
 
icehorse - 26 March 2017 08:28 AM
Jan_CAN - 26 March 2017 08:18 AM
icehorse - 26 March 2017 07:50 AM

jan said:

This is a separate bill to what you raised previously; the previous item posted was concerning response to a petition which was tabled.

Good to know, thanks.

I’m of the opinion that Islam is pernicious and relentless in its quest to dominate the world. (I understand that many here think that I’m over the top in that belief.) But I think this is a really good invasion for us to follow. There was an earlier bill that got tabled. But these guys DO NOT QUIT. Now, a short time later there is a new bill M103, that’s a little bit stronger, and has potentially a little more teeth. And it WILL NOT stop here. There will be more invasive bills to come. Let’s just watch and see, and what the heck if Canada goes the way of Europe, still nothing for us in the US to see here…

Our societies must do their best to protect ALL minorities from discrimination, hate and violence AND, at the same time, remain secular and protect freedom of speech—the challenge is to get this balance right.

When you say “minority”, do you mean a person’s genes or a person’s ideas? When you say “discriminate”, should we be free to shun and marginalize Neo-Nazis? Same with “hate”, I hate Neo-Nazis, do you? I hate the KKK, do you?

We MUST be free to loudly and persistently criticize bad ideas. Harris was correct last year when he dubbed Islam “a motherlode of bad ideas”. Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim. As we have made it embarrassing to be a Neo-Nazi or KKK member.

Until Islam is seriously reformed, we should make it embarrassing to be a Muslim.

People are born Muslim.

Yes, I know! That sounds insane. And yes, I agree with you if you are about to argue that it’s not like being born with fair skin or bushy eyebrows. But i think for some Muslims, many, it is. What it’s not like, ironically, is being born Christian. Although, even more ironically, it might be like being born Catholic in Northern Ireland.

Embarrassing people for this reason seems cruel and unnecessary. Education seems more useful. Education about the cult aspects of religions, and the fallibility, and history that allowed them to get a stranglehold on people’s lives so that people think/feel that Islam is their identity from birth as much as their genetic identity. And of course liberation from some of the ideas that don’t fit with modern ideas of personal freedom. It’s for these reasons that I’d oppose the normalisation (in a Western country) of some Islamic traditions; but that which I call “normalisation” has some crossover with “tolerance and respect” which is where I get confused.

So a governmental initiative that seeks to cut down prejudice and discrimination and hate seems good, but if it does it by empowering Muslim leaders (such as teachers in schools or mosques) to further indoctrinate without criticism, then it’s failing in its purpose.

 

 
icehorse
 
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26 March 2017 10:08
 

jan said:

I really don’t think it’s fair to compare neo-Nazis to Muslims.  I don’t think I’ve ever a met a neo-Nazi, but I suspect they would make their hateful ideas evident.  I know several Muslims, not intimately, but well enough.  Without exception, they have been like everyone else; I don’t see hate in any of them.  Shunning them in any way would be outright discrimination.

Analogies and metaphors always break down if taken too literally. That said, I want to offer another analogy:

To me, EVERY Muslim is similar to typhoid Mary. Individually most mean no harm, but they are (usually inadvertently), carriers of dangerous, regressive ideas that have real and hugely negative impacts on the world.

To be clear, most Muslims were indoctrinated from birth. These regressive ideas were forced into them without their permission. In many cases these ideas might even be subconscious. IMO, to be born into a Muslim family is to be hobbled from day one. It is in some ways similar to being born into a single mother family. The odds are stacked against you in both cases.

But Islam is JUST ideas, and although it’s not easy, minds can be changed.

To me, making Islam embarrassing is the most compassionate action we can take. On the other hand, for us to leave Muslims to their stultifying beliefs is to help insure their continued, second class lives.

Ola - I totally agree with your idea of education!!

[ Edited: 26 March 2017 10:11 by icehorse]
 
 
icehorse
 
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26 March 2017 10:24
 
bbearren - 26 March 2017 09:35 AM

The sky is not falling.

You are correct! But your freedoms are being undermined.

 
 
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