< 1 2 3 4 >  Last ›
 
   
 

God in the imperfect

 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 10:49
 
GAD - 26 March 2017 10:37 AM

Why do you see so much evidence of God in this beautiful and imperfect world, particularly in the imperfect.

The answer is because you have to. The imperfect is in your face and your magic can’t deny it so you say that’s the way it is suppose to be i.e. delusion and denial.

You reminded me of something.

as you know I do not believe in God or for that matter any supernatural being ...other than the tooth fairy

but in looking at how my life turned out (the good , the bad, and the ugly), I often say to myself,

“That’s how it was meant to be.”

Is there a connection with your observation?

 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 11:01
 
MrRon - 26 March 2017 09:55 AM

...if you base faith on personal experience, does that mean that faith can lead someone to one conclusion and someone else to an opposite conclusion (depending on their own experiences)?

I suspect its not just a difference in experiences but rather how one interprets their personal experience.

If En feels strange and he’s not drinking, he might say “egads its God”
If I feel strange I might say, “damn, I’m having a migraine”


But I accept your expected retort to me,
“Let En answer for himself.”

 
GAD
 
Avatar
 
 
GAD
Total Posts:  17887
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
26 March 2017 11:11
 
jdrnd - 26 March 2017 10:49 AM
GAD - 26 March 2017 10:37 AM

Why do you see so much evidence of God in this beautiful and imperfect world, particularly in the imperfect.

The answer is because you have to. The imperfect is in your face and your magic can’t deny it so you say that’s the way it is suppose to be i.e. delusion and denial.

You reminded me of something.

as you know I do not believe in God or for that matter any supernatural being ...other than the tooth fairy

but in looking at how my life turned out (the good , the bad, and the ugly), I often say to myself,

“That’s how it was meant to be.”

Is there a connection with your observation?

It’s the plot of so many scifi stories so I think everyone gets that feeling. What do you do after you have had that thought, create a whole universe of philosophy, karma, fate, destiny, magic and gods who designed the universe for you because you are so special? That makes for good scifi, fantasy and religion, but you have to remember they are all make-believe. It’s like I always tell my children, magic isn’t real, it’s for fun, and stay away from the ones who think it’s real because they are nuts.

 

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
Avatar
 
 
Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1375
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
26 March 2017 11:26
 
jdrnd - 26 March 2017 09:20 AM
burt - 26 March 2017 08:57 AM

There is a chapter in the Castenada book Journey to Ixtlan where this is dealt with in terms of “omens” and “agreements.” In general Castenada is a great fraud…

I read Castaneda’s first three books in college.  I believed them.

That’s funny, so did I. I believed them enough that I once had an overwhelming LSD trip that turned into a real Castenada experience, which included an encounter with a Lizard Spirit.

For a long time afterward,  I wasn’t sure how to interpret the experience. Had I touched another reality, the one Castenada had written about, or was I was just too high and my mind had produced an amazing fabrication?

Years late, I read up-on Carlos Castenada and realized he was a bullshit artist — a very talented one.

This taught me to take such experiences with a grain of salt. The mind is capable of producing, under the right circumstances, incredible fantasies and dream states. There is no doubt in my mind that they can seem absolutely real. It is the interpretation of them that is critical.

 
 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 11:55
 
Cheshire Cat - 26 March 2017 11:26 AM
jdrnd - 26 March 2017 09:20 AM
burt - 26 March 2017 08:57 AM

There is a chapter in the Castenada book Journey to Ixtlan where this is dealt with in terms of “omens” and “agreements.” In general Castenada is a great fraud…

I read Castaneda’s first three books in college.  I believed them.

That’s funny, so did I. Years late, I read up-on Carlos Castenada and realized he was a bullshit artist — a very talented one.

This taught me to take such experiences with a grain of salt. The mind is capable of producing, under the right circumstances, incredible fantasies and dream states. There is no doubt in my mind that they can seem absolutely real. It is the interpretation of them that is critical.

Too bad. 

Initially I didn’t want to believe he made it up.

If only wishing thinking made something true…sigh.

 
proximacentauri
 
Avatar
 
 
proximacentauri
Total Posts:  337
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
26 March 2017 12:19
 
Magda - 26 March 2017 03:04 AM

Magda - 25 March 2017 06:35 PM

Mostly all of the above I have found to be true by way of experience. I don’t think that this way of viewing suffering as transformative is found exclusively in the Christian religion at all, but is at the heart of many religions and philosophies.

The thought of getting closer to any god through one’s suffering is just one of any number of controlling narratives that religions will leverage to prey on human frailty, in my view. But, there was a time when I believed differently when my thoughts were still controlled by the indoctrinated beliefs of my youth.

The strange beauty of the human experience involves pain and suffering. We can’t get away from it, after all, we’re no different than any other animal.  We can either choose to experience life within the confines defined by religious belief, or we can experience a life free of an invisible totalitarian and a nonsensical belief system that condemns anyone who dares not submit to its claims.

The good news is, we can love fully, experience the full beauty of life, and endure suffering without resorting to false belief systems. In the final analysis, I think filling one’s head with irrational nonsense can only do more harm than good.

[ Edited: 26 March 2017 12:25 by proximacentauri]
 
Brother Mario
 
Avatar
 
 
Brother Mario
Total Posts:  1211
Joined  26-02-2017
 
 
 
26 March 2017 12:44
 

So, let’s see ...

Magda wants God to be a poetic being.

Skep wants God to stay out of politics.

Jan wants God to be almost God.

jd wants God to accept his 5ct. request and give him a $1,000,000 gift.

Ron wants God to pet kittens and not allow them to die.

GAD wants God to appear to his kids in plain sight.

Cheshire Cat wants God to not be an LSD trip.

burt wants God to write a book that he can read and then tell everyone about.

EN wants God hid behind his personal faith.

...

Gee, I wonder why none of you has a love of God based upon deep respect, gratitude, and experience. (Well, EN says he does.)

You’re looking in the right places, are sacrificing so much, and have personalities that God would certainly like to hang out with.

I can’t understand it.

...

A few questions:

Do all of you make up for this aloof evil God we may or may not have by donating a portion of your monies, every month directly out of your checkbooks, to help dying children, abused animals, wounded soldiers, and the like?

I mean, some of you are so incredulous at God’s horrible plan for us, you must do everything you can to alleviate the horrible suffering that our asshole God, if he really exists, allows, right?

And when you contemplate the end of your life, do you arrive at the conclusion that if it is indeed true that you will live forever with those you love growing ever closer to an omnipotent loving God, no amount of suffering you endured would be worth it?

And when you hear a theist, such as I, tell you that our sufferings and struggles make us who we are more than our comforts do, do you shake your head and judge that it is in our happy moments alone that we are truly human?

And when you come to this forum to discuss the evidence for God’s existence, do you really expect you will be swayed to search for God within yourself, the place God is found, because someone wrote a sentence that gave to you a reason to not be the skeptic atheist you take intellectual pride in being?

...

Now ... I think you people have created a superficial existence for yourselves that does not allow you to look within yourselves any deeper than the thoughts off the top of your heads.

So I’m not anxiously awaiting your answers. Trust me on this one.

 
 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 13:26
 
Brother Mario - 26 March 2017 12:44 PM

I wonder why none of you has a love of God based upon deep respect, gratitude, and experience.

Because God doesn’t exist.

 
Magda
 
Avatar
 
 
Magda
Total Posts:  633
Joined  01-12-2014
 
 
 
26 March 2017 13:41
 

Mario, I miss the lists, but I’m disappointed that I’m on one!

Absolutely brilliant though to see you posting again. If you could see the smile on my face.

 
 
GAD
 
Avatar
 
 
GAD
Total Posts:  17887
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
26 March 2017 13:48
 
jdrnd - 26 March 2017 01:26 PM
Brother Mario - 26 March 2017 12:44 PM

I wonder why none of you has a love of God based upon deep respect, gratitude, and experience.

Because God doesn’t exist.

Add that is all the microphones you need, mike drop.

 
 
SkepticX
 
Avatar
 
 
SkepticX
Total Posts:  14817
Joined  24-12-2004
 
 
 
26 March 2017 14:04
 
jdrnd - 26 March 2017 01:26 PM
Brother Mario - 26 March 2017 12:44 PM

I wonder why none of you has a love of God based upon deep respect, gratitude, and experience.

Because God doesn’t exist.


It’s far more than that though.

God is a huge distraction from our humanity. It’s a fabricated usurper of one of the most important aspects of being human—or connection with each other, and the fact that we/each other are what’s most important in our world (just as we observe in all other social species, on both counts). Among other things God is a way to distract us from these facts of life as a homo sapiens, used for various reasons, all of them being at least benignly negative and often quite malignant. The dramatic, biblical way to put it is that God is a fiction that usurps our birthright as human beings.

Our social nature generally overcomes our religious inclinations though, and it even maneuvers our religious nature into positive manifestations, so for most it’s not really huge any more (at least not so much in the West), but for many it is, and it’s still toxic and a source of many very serious problems, regardless.

 
 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 14:32
 
SkepticX - 26 March 2017 02:04 PM

God is a huge distraction from our humanity. It’s a fabricated usurper of one of the most important aspects of being human—or connection with each other, and the fact that we/each other are what’s most important in our world (just as we observe in all other social species, on both counts). Among other things God is a way to distract us from these facts of life as a homo sapiens, used for various reasons, all of them being at least benignly negative and often quite malignant. The dramatic, biblical way to put it is that God is a fiction that usurps our birthright as human beings.

Our social nature generally overcomes our religious inclinations though, and it even maneuvers our religious nature into positive manifestations, so for most it’s not really huge any more (at least not so much in the West), but for many it is, and it’s still toxic and a source of many very serious problems, regardless.

Well written.

 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5899
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 14:33
 

...talk about waving a red flag.

 
hannahtoo
 
Avatar
 
 
hannahtoo
Total Posts:  7176
Joined  15-05-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2017 14:46
 

Just because we can find hope or beauty or deep meaning through suffering doesn’t mean there is a God.  I don’t believe pain is any more important than joy.  Both define our lives.

Yesterday I was talking with a friend about the tragic suicides that have occurred within the past year among adolescents in our community.  We talked about the emotional roller coaster of the teen years, social media pressures, immature perspective, and copycat choices.  My friend is a Christian.  I asked her whether she thought that belief in heaven might make suicide easier.  She agreed, yes maybe. 

A mentally ill person I know says he looks forward to heaven, when all his tears will be wiped away.  I guess that gives him some hope.  But it also could be an excuse for hurrying the process.

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21905
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
26 March 2017 14:58
 
Skipshot - 26 March 2017 07:43 AM
EN - 26 March 2017 03:28 AM

Thanks, Magda.  For those of us who base faith on personal experience, your post made sense. Hard evidence leads to knowledge, not faith.  Experience leads to other worlds.  I’ll be interested to read the responses.

Faith based on personal experience is OK with me as long as it is kept personal and out of public policy.

I have no problem with keeping religion of every sort out of public policy.

 
 < 1 2 3 4 >  Last ›