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Does Religion Cause Violence?

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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24 June 2017 15:23
 
jdrnd - 23 June 2017 06:49 AM

I agree with you.
The article that Skep promoted in his OP suggests that the secular is no different than the religious in instigating violence.

Actually I’d say it makes a strong case that our concept of religion is untenable because the operative aspects of religion (such as when it instigates violence) are also primary to other paradigms that we don’t generally conceive of as religious. I don’t think that’s the case he intended to make or believes he made though—at least not at the time he wrote that.

 

jdrnd - 23 June 2017 06:49 AM

I feel otherwise because much of what religion promotes is based on the imagined thoughts of fictional beings.

I agree that’s a clear distinction that he didn’t address, or rather that he didn’t contend with this distinction (or was able to avoid it) due to the specificity of his topic—the essay was specifically about the lack of clear distinctions between the religious vs. the secular where instigating violence is concerned.

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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24 June 2017 17:40
 
EN - 24 June 2017 03:10 PM
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

All I was doing was suggesting another category of religion to Skep.  I wasn’t responding to you.  But you took it as an opportunity to preach your message, which is to be expected.


Oh hmmm

never mind

 
EN
 
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EN
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25 June 2017 09:41
 
jdrnd - 24 June 2017 05:40 PM
EN - 24 June 2017 03:10 PM
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

All I was doing was suggesting another category of religion to Skep.  I wasn’t responding to you.  But you took it as an opportunity to preach your message, which is to be expected.


Oh hmmm

never mind

“Never mind” is basically what I’ve come to see is the appropriate response to any discussion on the internet.

 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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25 June 2017 11:26
 
EN - 25 June 2017 09:41 AM
jdrnd - 24 June 2017 05:40 PM
EN - 24 June 2017 03:10 PM
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

All I was doing was suggesting another category of religion to Skep.  I wasn’t responding to you.  But you took it as an opportunity to preach your message, which is to be expected.


Oh hmmm

never mind

“Never mind” is basically what I’ve come to see is the appropriate response to any discussion on the internet.

You know EN,

Since you don’t want to let this go,
IN FACT all religion is personal.

Its a personal choice to believe in the imaginary, so no special category is needed.

 

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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25 June 2017 12:10
 

You need to let it go, Jeff. Mr. En does not require your comprehension. Take a nap.

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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25 June 2017 12:32
 
Nhoj Morley - 25 June 2017 12:10 PM

You need to let it go, Jeff. Mr. En does not require your comprehension. Take a nap.

Thanks for the advice, Dad.

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 June 2017 18:48
 

“America is the greatest country in the world!” seems to be a belief held by the majority in this country, although by most any metric, America is not the greatest country in the world.  God is often given equal billing preceding, within, or following that statement.

Certainly it can be called a nationalist statement, but is it a secular/nationalist statement, or religious/nationalist statement?  For me, it’s sorta in lock-step with religion, but as always, I could be wrong.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 June 2017 18:54
 
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

And if one’s personal faith does not invoke a “supernatural” god, with one’s decisions based in the physical laws of the universe?

 
 
Rosalina
 
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Rosalina
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30 June 2017 07:00
 

In some cases yes and in some cases no

 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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30 June 2017 08:32
 
bbearren - 25 June 2017 06:54 PM
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

And if one’s personal faith does not invoke a “supernatural” god, with one’s decisions based in the physical laws of the universe?

what is the definition of “faith”?

 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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30 June 2017 08:33
 
Rosalina - 30 June 2017 07:00 AM

In some cases yes and in some cases no

agreed

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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30 June 2017 11:13
 
jdrnd - 30 June 2017 08:32 AM
bbearren - 25 June 2017 06:54 PM
jdrnd - 22 June 2017 03:22 PM
EN - 21 June 2017 07:58 PM
jdrnd - 21 June 2017 12:14 PM

what do you mean by “personal religion”

Not part of any organized institution, but a faith simply based on one’s own experience and convictions.  Not dogma-driven; similar to having a personal philosophy, a personal viewpoint or a personal perspective, but entering into the religious realm. Does that help?

But EN,
My point over all these years is that if a person bases their decisions on something that doesn’t exist, even on a “personal” supernatural God, that person is making decisions based on a fiction, based on something that isn’t true.
The point of secularism is that decisions are not based on the supernatural, because the supernatural doesn’t exist.

And if one’s personal faith does not invoke a “supernatural” god, with one’s decisions based in the physical laws of the universe?

what is the definition of “faith”?

The dictionary definition that I have always used; belief that is not based on proof.

Richard Feynman

 
 
Blocksy
 
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Blocksy
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13 July 2017 04:53
 

I agree with most of what is being said here, but I don’t think this is a warranted assumption:

But what is implied in the conventional wisdom that religion is prone to violence is that Christianity, Islam, and other faiths are more inclined toward violence than ideologies and institutions that are identified as “secular.”

In no way does the statement ‘Religion is prone to violence’ assume that it is therefore more violent than other secular belief systems; secular beliefs systems can also be prone to violence. It just seems to me that he’s tilting at windmills there.

 

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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13 July 2017 06:00
 
Blocksy - 13 July 2017 04:53 AM

I agree with most of what is being said here, but I don’t think this is a warranted assumption:

But what is implied in the conventional wisdom that religion is prone to violence is that Christianity, Islam, and other faiths are more inclined toward violence than ideologies and institutions that are identified as “secular.”

In no way does the statement ‘Religion is prone to violence’ assume that it is therefore more violent than other secular belief systems; secular beliefs systems can also be prone to violence. It just seems to me that he’s tilting at windmills there.


No, but I think it’s true that it’s the conventional wisdom—the way the notion is generally understood—at least in terms of the author’s target. It’s certainly debatable whether it’s conventional or unconventional to see it either way, but in my own purview I see exactly what he’s saying—it’s the unconventional who recognize the lack of this implication. But then I live in the Deep Red, where the large majority are desperate to be oppressed and are quite talented at finding it ... or creating it out of whole cloth when they can’t find even a thread to work with.

 
 
d0rkyd00d
 
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d0rkyd00d
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14 July 2017 08:02
 

I will answer the question with a question: did violence exist before religion?  If so, there’s your answer.

 
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