1 2 > 
 
   
 

Islam is next on the list

 
Skipshot
 
Avatar
 
 
Skipshot
Total Posts:  8923
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
17 August 2017 12:24
 

With all the kerfuffle over Nazis in Charlottesville, VA lately, I would like to remind Islam that the watchful eye of speech inciting violence is highly focused and will be trained on Islam, too.  No more religious protections for speech inciting violence.  All that stuff about killing Jews, infidels, and apostates isn’t cool anymore.  OK?

 
Dumaya
 
Avatar
 
 
Dumaya
Total Posts:  124
Joined  04-05-2017
 
 
 
20 August 2017 20:15
 

Words are but words.
I never yet did hear,
That the bruised heart
Was pierced through the ear!

—Willy Shake
———

Unless — when compared to this organism’s garden variety constituents — I am some “superhuman”, how is it that no matter what is said to me — irrespective of the words’ syntax; how they are phonated; their intonation; their content or insinuation; the volume they are conveyed with… (*resonant frequencies notwithstanding) — I remain unaffected?

How is it that, unless violence in actually, tangibly enacted, any preceding or accompanying words, have zero net affect on me?

Am I a wizard? An alien?... A god?!

What is it about me, that makes me so different?  So resilient to the slings and arrows of outrageous “offence”...?

Or is it in fact not me, who any such heuristic cogitation should be the focused of?

Hmmm… Really niggles ones’ neural noodles…

Image Attachments
 
architect.jpg
 
 
Skipshot
 
Avatar
 
 
Skipshot
Total Posts:  8923
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
20 August 2017 21:31
 

Have you noticed, Dumaya, that Muslims tend to take their religion seriously sometimes.  You might want to check the “Fuck Islam” thread for a tally of Muslim penchant for violence against their religion’s enemies.

Or you can do a search for Muslim terrorist attacks and maybe find a site like this one- http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Words do matter.

 
bigredfutbol
 
Avatar
 
 
bigredfutbol
Total Posts:  5572
Joined  05-04-2006
 
 
 
21 August 2017 08:31
 
Skipshot - 17 August 2017 12:24 PM

With all the kerfuffle over Nazis in Charlottesville, VA lately, I would like to remind Islam that the watchful eye of speech inciting violence is highly focused and will be trained on Islam, too.  No more religious protections for speech inciting violence.  All that stuff about killing Jews, infidels, and apostates isn’t cool anymore.  OK?

Yeah, we need a better way to distinguish between speech and incitement.

 
 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  2819
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 August 2017 11:14
 

If people were genuinely concerned about incitement to violence and believe words mattered, they would close down all the Mosques in the West.  There is no rational defense against it.

Islam got a pass because it is conflated with Christianity and Judaism.  This is at the core of confusion.

1. ALL Muslims who attend Mosques(and those who don’t attend)  believe Qur’an is the word of God. You can’t make the same claim about all Christians and all Jews who attend churches and synagogues. Besides Christianity and Judaism have had reformation, Islam did not.
2. Mosques in the West are built with monies from theocracies and Muslim countries. The foreign governments help build these terrorists playpens. 
3. The Qur’anic text which Muslims believe it to be word of God would be considered hate speech if spoken by anyone else in society. 
4. Muslims believe the Qur’an is the last word of God. So called peaceful Muslims are aiding and abetting the poisoning of young minds by reinforcing the belief that Qur’an is immutable, unchanged, and unchangeable perfect word of God which is the epitome of moral, social and personal guidance.

Stopping terrorism requires straight talk, honesty. Not platitudes.

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  20201
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
21 August 2017 11:16
 
Celal - 21 August 2017 11:14 AM

If people were genuinely concerned about incitement to violence and believe words mattered, they would close down all the Mosques in the West.  There is no rational defense against it.

Islam got a pass because it is conflated with Christianity and Judaism.  This is at the core of confusion.

1. ALL Muslims who attend Mosques(and those who don’t attend)  believe Qur’an is the word of God. You can’t make the same claim about all Christians and all Jews who attend churches and synagogues. Besides Christianity and Judaism have had reformation, Islam did not.
2. Mosques in the West are built with monies from theocracies and Muslim countries. The foreign governments help build these terrorists playpens. 
3. The Qur’anic text which Muslims believe it to be word of God would be considered hate speech if spoken by anyone else in society. 
4. Muslims believe the Qur’an is the last word of God. So called peaceful Muslims are aiding and abetting the poisoning of young minds by reinforcing the belief that Qur’an is immutable, unchanged, and unchangeable perfect word of God which is the epitome of moral, social and personal guidance.

Stopping terrorism requires straight talk, honesty. Not platitudes.

Explain the argument you would make in court when the First Amendment is raised.  Your suggestion is a legal and constitutional impossibility, even though you may be right from a practical and logical viewpoint.

 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  2819
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 August 2017 11:35
 
EN - 21 August 2017 11:16 AM
Celal - 21 August 2017 11:14 AM

If people were genuinely concerned about incitement to violence and believe words mattered, they would close down all the Mosques in the West.  There is no rational defense against it.

Islam got a pass because it is conflated with Christianity and Judaism.  This is at the core of confusion.

1. ALL Muslims who attend Mosques(and those who don’t attend)  believe Qur’an is the word of God. You can’t make the same claim about all Christians and all Jews who attend churches and synagogues. Besides Christianity and Judaism have had reformation, Islam did not.
2. Mosques in the West are built with monies from theocracies and Muslim countries. The foreign governments help build these terrorists playpens. 
3. The Qur’anic text which Muslims believe it to be word of God would be considered hate speech if spoken by anyone else in society. 
4. Muslims believe the Qur’an is the last word of God. So called peaceful Muslims are aiding and abetting the poisoning of young minds by reinforcing the belief that Qur’an is immutable, unchanged, and unchangeable perfect word of God which is the epitome of moral, social and personal guidance.

Stopping terrorism requires straight talk, honesty. Not platitudes.

Explain the argument you would make in court when the First Amendment is raised.  Your suggestion is a legal and constitutional impossibility, even though you may be right from a practical and logical viewpoint.

I recognize the uphill battle given the current state of the Constitution where “religion” is not defined. Preferably an amendment to the constitution to try and fix that would be needed without imposing any specific religion, but at least defining some attributes that would help serve humanity advancing social good. If such an amendment made then it would be easy as Islam does not advance morality, it retards it. 

The argument with or without the change would be framed around these lines:

1. Framers provided religious freedom with Judaeo-Christian principles in mind.  Islam is counter to those principles.
2. Islam is not a spiritual religion. It is form worship. All of the rituals in Islam about forms. If you ask a Muslim to describe Islam, he will talk about, fasting, praying 5 times, going to pilgrimage etc… These are descriptions in the physical. Not spiritual.
3. In Islamic laws, the worship is not left between the creator and the worshiper.  The sinner is not allowed to pay for the natural consequences of his sins. Man decides what the punishments are, etc..

Something along these lines, an argument could be constructed to disqualify Islam as a religion especially if the legal minds help, not fight it.

EDIT: Under the current Constitution, Nazism could also be established as a religion.  Absence of deity does not disqualify Nazism as a religion as there are other religions also have no single deity.  The principles of Nazism is very closely aligned with those of Islam.

[ Edited: 21 August 2017 11:44 by Celal]
 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  2819
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 August 2017 12:26
 

EN, another line of thought.

Given that “Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption”  was a legally recognized church in the United States, established by comedian and satirist John Oliver to make a point, what is the argument against establishing “Nazism” as a religion?  Instead of knee jerk reaction the society shows at the thought of Nazism, wouldn’t the support for it as a religion force the issue with Islam, in a court setting under the current Constitution?

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  20201
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
21 August 2017 14:36
 

While I appreciate the thoughts you have expressed, I am almost 100% certain that Islam, however your perceive it, would fit in the Constitution’s concept of freedom of religion.  It has a God, it has scripture, it has a form of worship.  It’s been around for 14 centuries. Well over a billion people follow it.  It’s going to qualify, and it will be protected.  But, carry on - things may change.

 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  2819
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 August 2017 14:52
 
EN - 21 August 2017 02:36 PM

While I appreciate the thoughts you have expressed, I am almost 100% certain that Islam, however your perceive it, would fit in the Constitution’s concept of freedom of religion. It has a God, it has scripture, it has a form of worship.  It’s been around for 14 centuries. Well over a billion people follow it.  It’s going to qualify, and it will be protected. But, carry on - things may change.

EN, ref bold and addressing everything you stated…
- It has a God… This is not a requirement for a religion. Buddhism, Shintoism have no creator GOD. Hence, Nazism qualifies also.
- It has scripture… Mein Kampf can arguably be considered document followed by Nazis, hence its scripture.
- It has a form of worship… There is clear form worship of Nazi ideology. You have seen the pictures.
- It’s been around for 14 centuries ... Longevity isn’t a qualifier or disqualifier as a religion.  There are many much younger religions. “lady of perpetual exemption” was founded in 2015.
- Well over a billion people follow it ... This again obviously not the criteria as studio audience of John Oliver alone qualified for enough followers to qualify as a religion.

Now, the question again is ...what is your legal argument against “Nazism” as a religion.

 

 
lukefrmal
 
Avatar
 
 
lukefrmal
Total Posts:  19
Joined  21-08-2017
 
 
 
21 August 2017 16:05
 

Religions, while idiotic and problematic, aren’t the problem here; violence is. The moment a ‘religion’ incites or encourages violence, it should not be protected to the extent that it does that. It’s not freedom of speech it’s national security, you can’t just let violent groups conglomerate inside your borders and preach and plot to kill or harm citizens it doesn’t like. If the ku klux klan formed a ‘religion’ to hide behind and started preaching about how they are going to kill the blacks, the moment a single attack happens that’s connected to any inciteful scripture from that ku klux klan religion, better be destroyed, or you don’t have ‘free speech’ any more, you are inviting an enemy to live inside your nations borders..

 
Skipshot
 
Avatar
 
 
Skipshot
Total Posts:  8923
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
21 August 2017 17:57
 

lukefrmal, I already thought of that, but, according to a Supreme Court ruling, I was wrong - https://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/70153/P30/#870081

Thanks for steering the conversation back to the relevant topic.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  6343
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
23 August 2017 20:49
 

I’m with Celal on this one, and we already have the means, we’re simply not using it. For decades our immigration laws have said that members of totalitarian ideologies can be barred from immigrating. I think you’d be hard pressed to argue that Islam is NOT a totalitarian ideology. I think Islam just has to whither away, but one intermediate step would be to define a Sharia-free denomination and make Muslims vow to follow that denomination. In other words a denomination that defangs Islam from totalitarian to just a religion.

 
 
jdrnd
 
Avatar
 
 
jdrnd
Total Posts:  5885
Joined  25-08-2009
 
 
 
25 August 2017 18:36
 
EN - 21 August 2017 11:16 AM

...you may be right from a practical and logical viewpoint.

as others on this thread have suggested,
Celal has a point.

 
lynmc
 
Avatar
 
 
lynmc
Total Posts:  353
Joined  03-08-2014
 
 
 
30 August 2017 20:30
 
Skipshot - 17 August 2017 12:24 PM

With all the kerfuffle over Nazis in Charlottesville, VA lately, I would like to remind Islam that the watchful eye of speech inciting violence is highly focused and will be trained on Islam, too.  No more religious protections for speech inciting violence.  All that stuff about killing Jews, infidels, and apostates isn’t cool anymore.  OK?

Well yeah, killing those, like most infidels and apostates, who haven’t done Muslims any harm isn’t cool.

If “the Jews” (by this I mean Zionist Jews) didn’t want these threats, maybe they shouldn’t have mass murdered, terrorized, expelled from their homes, or stolen the land and property and worldly goods of so many Muslims in the first place.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  6343
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
30 August 2017 21:07
 
lynmc - 30 August 2017 08:30 PM
Skipshot - 17 August 2017 12:24 PM

With all the kerfuffle over Nazis in Charlottesville, VA lately, I would like to remind Islam that the watchful eye of speech inciting violence is highly focused and will be trained on Islam, too.  No more religious protections for speech inciting violence.  All that stuff about killing Jews, infidels, and apostates isn’t cool anymore.  OK?

Well yeah, killing those, like most infidels and apostates, who haven’t done Muslims any harm isn’t cool.

If “the Jews” (by this I mean Zionist Jews) didn’t want these threats, maybe they shouldn’t have mass murdered, terrorized, expelled from their homes, or stolen the land and property and worldly goods of so many Muslims in the first place.

In general, the world doesn’t seem to be too thrilled with those “Palestinians” that Arafat cooked up:

refugee camps

 
 
 1 2 >