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What is Religion?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 August 2017 01:10
 
Greg M - 25 August 2017 12:14 AM
GAD - 24 August 2017 10:57 PM
Greg M - 24 August 2017 08:58 PM
GAD - 24 August 2017 05:31 PM

Can you show me a human god that isn’t made-believe i.e. a human invention? 

 

No, although I’d like to humorously say that if you took sufficient quantities of the right hallucinogens then you might see one, but of course it would still be an invention of your drug-riddled mind.

I don’t believe in human gods that are fictitious, nor non-human gods that are not human inventions, nor human or non-human gods that are factual.

I found it curious that you needed to specify that “Atheism is knowing that make-believe gods are not real” rather than simply saying “....knowing that gods are not real.” Specifying only fictitious ones seemed rather redundant, but It can depend upon how one defines a god.  To some I might seem a god of solitaire, if I ever played it in public, which I don’t,  but that doesn’t truly make me a god, merely awesome.  Hey, perception and definition.  I am a human-made God still, well I don’t believe it, but some insane person might, but if I were deemed a god, it would be an inventive designation. I’ve yet to meet an atheist who said something like “I believe that the non-make-believe gods are real, but the make-believe ones are totally bogus, dude” On the other hand, a theist might well think “I believe in the true God, but not the huge number of make-believe Gods that other people throughout history have believed in.”  I thought you might be going for some sarcastic humour there, but I haven’t been around long enough to get a feel for the humour of this forum.

Seems rather pedantic… OK, can you show me a non-make-believe god? Anyways it’s a line of reasoning and matter of necessity when dealing with people who make special exceptions for gods. If I say I know there are no gods I get the you can’t know/prove there are no gods and/or the conceptional gods shticks.

like for example

I am an atheist, and while I don’t think that there is a God, I don’t deny the possibility.  Most would label me an agnostic, but I tend to prefer the term atheist since agnosticism can imply that we cannot know and can never know if God exists.

 

The pedants are revolting, sorry if I came across as pedantic. I was genuinely curious about your reasoning, and it got me thinking a bit.  I tend to use other people’s thoughts as springboards for my own (as is commonplace in discussion) which may come across as arrogant, argumentative or at least unfriendly when it’s not intended to be.  When one is new one should try extra hard to be charitable in discussion, methinks.  And no, of course I cannot show you you a non-make-believe god either, but then I wouldn’t try to even if it was somehow possible as I don’t believe in gods. Perhaps some individual might attribute almost godlike qualities to Sam Harris, God of the Podcast, but I wouldn’t expect that of any people at this forum despite any respect for the man and enjoyment in his works one might have.  Anyway, I get the line of reasoning, thanks for taking the time to explain.

I actually saw sense in saying “Atheism is knowing that make-believe gods are not real” rather than the more commonly put “Atheism is knowing that gods are not real.” The second statement is not necessarily true of an atheist as an atheist need not know that gods are not real (for instance with a soft atheist), but merely doesn’t believe in gods (no truth claim), but I can say that most every atheist would be comfortable claiming with certainty that made-up gods are not real (I could think of some weird hypothetical people who would consider themselves atheist and not believe that with certainty either, but you won’t find many who believe that reality is a fiction, and “that all that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream”—Poe, or some such thing).

Damn, I honestly had something that felt like deep insight, probably an illusion, but my daughter interrupted me and I forgot what I was going to say.  Anyway, I also get the distinction that we can define things into existence and use the term god to mean something that is not supernatural and could be described more prosaically, but it’s not a very useful exercise.

And apologies to the topic-starter if this seems like hijacking your discussion to any extent.

No worries, your fine. I’m a hard/positive atheist and so crushing soft atheists, seeing them driven before me and hearing the lamentations of their failed intellect is kind of my thing.

 

 
 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
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25 August 2017 04:34
 

Is education a religion or not?

 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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25 August 2017 04:56
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 25 August 2017 04:34 AM

Is education a religion or not?


Not.

Religion is part of human nature—the part that seeks and if necessary fabricates and nurtures “answers” where we have none.

That’s why we find it so hard to categorize—we’re socialized to think of it as the institutions with all the fancy symbolic window dressing, but it’s really just part of our nature. We tend to reify it—it can be very hard not to. We almost always reify religion when we talk about it as if it were some sort of entity or Thing Unto Itself rather than entirely a matter of mind.

 
 
Jefe
 
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25 August 2017 07:38
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 25 August 2017 04:34 AM

Is education a religion or not?

If education is a religion, does that make innocence/ignorance equivalent to atheism?

 
 
Zardoz Speakz
 
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25 August 2017 09:38
 
GAD - 25 August 2017 01:10 AM
Greg M - 25 August 2017 12:14 AM
GAD - 24 August 2017 10:57 PM
Greg M - 24 August 2017 08:58 PM
GAD - 24 August 2017 05:31 PM

Can you show me a human god that isn’t made-believe i.e. a human invention? 

 

No, although I’d like to humorously say that if you took sufficient quantities of the right hallucinogens then you might see one, but of course it would still be an invention of your drug-riddled mind.

I don’t believe in human gods that are fictitious, nor non-human gods that are not human inventions, nor human or non-human gods that are factual.

I found it curious that you needed to specify that “Atheism is knowing that make-believe gods are not real” rather than simply saying “....knowing that gods are not real.” Specifying only fictitious ones seemed rather redundant, but It can depend upon how one defines a god.  To some I might seem a god of solitaire, if I ever played it in public, which I don’t,  but that doesn’t truly make me a god, merely awesome.  Hey, perception and definition.  I am a human-made God still, well I don’t believe it, but some insane person might, but if I were deemed a god, it would be an inventive designation. I’ve yet to meet an atheist who said something like “I believe that the non-make-believe gods are real, but the make-believe ones are totally bogus, dude” On the other hand, a theist might well think “I believe in the true God, but not the huge number of make-believe Gods that other people throughout history have believed in.”  I thought you might be going for some sarcastic humour there, but I haven’t been around long enough to get a feel for the humour of this forum.

Seems rather pedantic… OK, can you show me a non-make-believe god? Anyways it’s a line of reasoning and matter of necessity when dealing with people who make special exceptions for gods. If I say I know there are no gods I get the you can’t know/prove there are no gods and/or the conceptional gods shticks.

like for example

I am an atheist, and while I don’t think that there is a God, I don’t deny the possibility.  Most would label me an agnostic, but I tend to prefer the term atheist since agnosticism can imply that we cannot know and can never know if God exists.

 

The pedants are revolting, sorry if I came across as pedantic. I was genuinely curious about your reasoning, and it got me thinking a bit.  I tend to use other people’s thoughts as springboards for my own (as is commonplace in discussion) which may come across as arrogant, argumentative or at least unfriendly when it’s not intended to be.  When one is new one should try extra hard to be charitable in discussion, methinks.  And no, of course I cannot show you you a non-make-believe god either, but then I wouldn’t try to even if it was somehow possible as I don’t believe in gods. Perhaps some individual might attribute almost godlike qualities to Sam Harris, God of the Podcast, but I wouldn’t expect that of any people at this forum despite any respect for the man and enjoyment in his works one might have.  Anyway, I get the line of reasoning, thanks for taking the time to explain.

I actually saw sense in saying “Atheism is knowing that make-believe gods are not real” rather than the more commonly put “Atheism is knowing that gods are not real.” The second statement is not necessarily true of an atheist as an atheist need not know that gods are not real (for instance with a soft atheist), but merely doesn’t believe in gods (no truth claim), but I can say that most every atheist would be comfortable claiming with certainty that made-up gods are not real (I could think of some weird hypothetical people who would consider themselves atheist and not believe that with certainty either, but you won’t find many who believe that reality is a fiction, and “that all that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream”—Poe, or some such thing).

Damn, I honestly had something that felt like deep insight, probably an illusion, but my daughter interrupted me and I forgot what I was going to say.  Anyway, I also get the distinction that we can define things into existence and use the term god to mean something that is not supernatural and could be described more prosaically, but it’s not a very useful exercise.

And apologies to the topic-starter if this seems like hijacking your discussion to any extent.

No worries, your fine. I’m a hard/positive atheist and so crushing soft atheists, seeing them driven before me and hearing the lamentations of their failed intellect is kind of my thing.

 

Hey, whatever floats your boat.  smile  I’m actually about as hard a soft atheist as one can be without becoming a diamond, and a hard determinist, and I have a mere veneer of civilization.  I don’t believe in gods, see no need for them, and I think it incredibly unlikely that they exist for all the obvious reasons.  That said, I do not deny the possibility no matter how incredibly remote that there may be some sort of deity-like creature or consciousness that might be thought of as a god using some definition.  I married a born again Christian, so that may just be me finding a medium that makes my marriage more comfortable, and that I think that it’s important to remain somewhat open-minded to possibilities else one becomes arrogant in one’s beliefs.  I’ll have to check out this forum more to see the intellectual arguments against any level of soft atheism. 

—————————————————————————————————————————————————-

As for the question of is education a religion, in a sense it can be looked at that way as, to put it clunkily, anything involving systems and symbols that is valued very highly by adherents can be, but to describe it that way muddies the waters as religion becomes such a broad terms that it becomes more meaningless in communication. You seem to have a beef with dictionaries, but they are useful in finding ways to define things in way that makes communication easier.  It’s common sense generally to define things in their most common sense, although context helps to clarify the specific meanings. By the way, by “beef” I don’t mean meat from a bovine, but if you hadn’t known the term and checked an English dictionary when I used the term then you might know that already.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 August 2017 10:05
 
Greg M - 25 August 2017 09:38 AM
GAD - 25 August 2017 01:10 AM

No worries, your fine. I’m a hard/positive atheist and so crushing soft atheists, seeing them driven before me and hearing the lamentations of their failed intellect is kind of my thing.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.  smile  I’m actually about as hard a soft atheist as one can be without becoming a diamond, and a hard determinist, and I have a mere veneer of civilization.  I don’t believe in gods, see no need for them, and I think it incredibly unlikely that they exist for all the obvious reasons.  That said, I do not deny the possibility no matter how incredibly remote that there may be some sort of deity-like creature or consciousness that might be thought of as a god using some definition.  I married a born again Christian, so that may just be me finding a medium that makes my marriage more comfortable, and that I think that it’s important to remain somewhat open-minded to possibilities else one becomes arrogant in one’s beliefs.  I’ll have to check out this forum more to see the intellectual arguments against any level of soft atheism.

If it’s not fun then we are doing it wrong. Let me introduce you to the Butt fairy the creator of the universe who lives in my ass and has chosen me to be his prophet so that I may tell you what foods to eat so that the smell of your farts pleases him.

Do you deny his possibility?

 
 
Zardoz Speakz
 
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25 August 2017 11:15
 
GAD - 25 August 2017 10:05 AM
Greg M - 25 August 2017 09:38 AM
GAD - 25 August 2017 01:10 AM

No worries, your fine. I’m a hard/positive atheist and so crushing soft atheists, seeing them driven before me and hearing the lamentations of their failed intellect is kind of my thing.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.  smile  I’m actually about as hard a soft atheist as one can be without becoming a diamond, and a hard determinist, and I have a mere veneer of civilization.  I don’t believe in gods, see no need for them, and I think it incredibly unlikely that they exist for all the obvious reasons.  That said, I do not deny the possibility no matter how incredibly remote that there may be some sort of deity-like creature or consciousness that might be thought of as a god using some definition.  I married a born again Christian, so that may just be me finding a medium that makes my marriage more comfortable, and that I think that it’s important to remain somewhat open-minded to possibilities else one becomes arrogant in one’s beliefs.  I’ll have to check out this forum more to see the intellectual arguments against any level of soft atheism.

If it’s not fun then we are doing it wrong. Let me introduce you to the Butt fairy the creator of the universe who lives in my ass and has chosen me to be his prophet so that I may tell you what foods to eat so that the smell of your farts pleases him.

Do you deny his possibility?

Of course I have no faith in its existence, but as infinitely unlikely as it is, not as a complete absolute, no.

You should try that argument in prison, you might find that one of the inmates discovers it after you drop your soap.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 August 2017 16:37
 
Greg M - 25 August 2017 11:15 AM
GAD - 25 August 2017 10:05 AM
Greg M - 25 August 2017 09:38 AM
GAD - 25 August 2017 01:10 AM

No worries, your fine. I’m a hard/positive atheist and so crushing soft atheists, seeing them driven before me and hearing the lamentations of their failed intellect is kind of my thing.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.  smile  I’m actually about as hard a soft atheist as one can be without becoming a diamond, and a hard determinist, and I have a mere veneer of civilization.  I don’t believe in gods, see no need for them, and I think it incredibly unlikely that they exist for all the obvious reasons.  That said, I do not deny the possibility no matter how incredibly remote that there may be some sort of deity-like creature or consciousness that might be thought of as a god using some definition.  I married a born again Christian, so that may just be me finding a medium that makes my marriage more comfortable, and that I think that it’s important to remain somewhat open-minded to possibilities else one becomes arrogant in one’s beliefs.  I’ll have to check out this forum more to see the intellectual arguments against any level of soft atheism.

If it’s not fun then we are doing it wrong. Let me introduce you to the Butt fairy the creator of the universe who lives in my ass and has chosen me to be his prophet so that I may tell you what foods to eat so that the smell of your farts pleases him.

Do you deny his possibility?

Of course I have no faith in its existence, but as infinitely unlikely as it is, not as a complete absolute, no.

You should try that argument in prison, you might find that one of the inmates discovers it after you drop your soap.

Excellent! The Butt Fairy is very pleased to know that he has the same status as all other human gods that have been pulled from the asses of men!

 

 
 
SkepticX
 
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25 August 2017 18:30
 
Jefe - 25 August 2017 07:38 AM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 25 August 2017 04:34 AM

Is education a religion or not?

If education is a religion, does that make innocence/ignorance equivalent to atheism?


Obviously it means innocence and ignorance are religion too.

So was that question. It was an inquisitive thought, and inquisitive cognition is religion as well, because it’s inquisitive.

Also avatars are religion, because they represent things about other things.

And the letter “O”.

 
 
Zardoz Speakz
 
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25 August 2017 21:41
 
GAD - 25 August 2017 04:37 PM

Excellent! The Butt Fairy is very pleased to know that he has the same status as all other human gods that have been pulled from the asses of men!

That is funny, I should have anticipated the “punch line”.

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a butt trumpet” (Revelations Redux).

Although I have no or belief in any gods, I’m not convinced that all conceptions are equal (there is a slippery slope when accepting any as possible no matter how unlikely you think it to be, and in accepting one conception as valid, but not another).  While still improbable, a non-personal god seems less improbable than a personal god. Forms of deism can seem more sensible than theism.  The vaguer the conception of god the more probable it seems to me, even though I still find any conception of god in any meaningful context highly improbable.  For instance a butt fairy that reveals truth to you seems less theoretically probable than , say, the conception of god that Spinoza posited.  Some people just define god as the cosmos or nature, or dark matter/energy, and do not imbue it with any supernatural qualities, but this isn’t helpful.  One can define a god into existence especially if one is loose with generally accepted definitions.

It’s not enough for me to say that I don’t believe in god, but not to make a truth claim that there is no chance that a god of some form could exist. even if I highly doubt, nor see the need for, any god in a meaningful context.  One might conceive that this is a weakness because of my discomfort with being an atheist among religious people and a lack of confidence generally, and well, I don’t try to hide my weaknesses as I admire self-deprecation in others.  Some conceptions of gods or divinity do seem more ridiculous to me than others, although I have no need for a god in any form and perhaps I am being rather intellectually dishonest as I am more of a disbeliever at heart than I am making myself out to be.  In a sense I could have said about myself at times that I’m open to the idea of god, but I reject it.  There are levels of cognitive dissonance when it comes to many in regards to deism/ theism.  I definitely prefer rationalism to superstition and reason to revelation.  Essentially I am a hard atheist and perhaps it is the fear of seeming arrogant or offensive to people close to me that I leave the possibility of some godliesh something open.  The only godliesh conception that I can conceive of that seems to make any sense is not best called god, and has no consciousness.  I have considered when I was very young that there may be an energy that exists in another dimension outside of time and space that might be some godlike entity, but I used to watch a lot of Twilight Zone.

 
 
GAD
 
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26 August 2017 08:44
 
Greg M - 25 August 2017 09:41 PM
GAD - 25 August 2017 04:37 PM

Excellent! The Butt Fairy is very pleased to know that he has the same status as all other human gods that have been pulled from the asses of men!

That is funny, I should have anticipated the “punch line”.

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a butt trumpet” (Revelations Redux).

Although I have no or belief in any gods, I’m not convinced that all conceptions are equal (there is a slippery slope when accepting any as possible no matter how unlikely you think it to be, and in accepting one conception as valid, but not another).  While still improbable, a non-personal god seems less improbable than a personal god. Forms of deism can seem more sensible than theism.  The vaguer the conception of god the more probable it seems to me, even though I still find any conception of god in any meaningful context highly improbable.  For instance a butt fairy that reveals truth to you seems less theoretically probable than , say, the conception of god that Spinoza posited.  Some people just define god as the cosmos or nature, or dark matter/energy, and do not imbue it with any supernatural qualities, but this isn’t helpful.  One can define a god into existence especially if one is loose with generally accepted definitions.

It’s not enough for me to say that I don’t believe in god, but not to make a truth claim that there is no chance that a god of some form could exist. even if I highly doubt, nor see the need for, any god in a meaningful context.  One might conceive that this is a weakness because of my discomfort with being an atheist among religious people and a lack of confidence generally, and well, I don’t try to hide my weaknesses as I admire self-deprecation in others.  Some conceptions of gods or divinity do seem more ridiculous to me than others, although I have no need for a god in any form and perhaps I am being rather intellectually dishonest as I am more of a disbeliever at heart than I am making myself out to be.  In a sense I could have said about myself at times that I’m open to the idea of god, but I reject it.  There are levels of cognitive dissonance when it comes to many in regards to deism/ theism.  I definitely prefer rationalism to superstition and reason to revelation.  Essentially I am a hard atheist and perhaps it is the fear of seeming arrogant or offensive to people close to me that I leave the possibility of some godliesh something open.  The only godliesh conception that I can conceive of that seems to make any sense is not best called god, and has no consciousness.  I have considered when I was very young that there may be an energy that exists in another dimension outside of time and space that might be some godlike entity, but I used to watch a lot of Twilight Zone.

To have ones beliefs in god(s) dumped on by the Butt Fairy causes a lot consternation and constipation and the first thought is to try and wipe him away by redefining the symptoms of belief, but I can assure you that the Butt Fairy is symptomatic of any set of god beliefs.
 
As for conceptual gods there are two problems a) being conceptual means that there is no knowledge of them and that all concepts and attributes are inherently human inventions, and b) there are no human religions that worship conceptual gods as they all claim knowledge of gods. This has to be so, because belief in god(s) you have no knowledge of is belief in make-believe gods.     

 

 
 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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29 August 2017 13:41
 

Only insane do not have religion.

Education is religion.

Nationalism is religion

Law is religion

Morality is religion.

Atheism is religion as Buddhist do not believe in god.

Atheism is state religion in disguise where god is replaced by government which can kill by capital punishment or by work of intelligence agent.

Without religion (set of beliefs) no one can operate his brain.

The fact that we believe in our name, parents name sibling’s name is religion because they are not scientifically verified.

The word religion is most misunderstood word.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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29 August 2017 15:46
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 29 August 2017 01:41 PM

Only insane do not have religion.

Education is religion.

Nationalism is religion

Law is religion

Morality is religion.

Atheism is religion as Buddhist do not believe in god.

Atheism is state religion in disguise where god is replaced by government which can kill by capital punishment or by work of intelligence agent.

Without religion (set of beliefs) no one can operate his brain.

The fact that we believe in our name, parents name sibling’s name is religion because they are not scientifically verified.

The word religion is most misunderstood word.

Certainly misunderstood by you at least.

 
 
MrRon
 
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29 August 2017 15:54
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 29 August 2017 01:41 PM

Only insane do not have religion.

Education is religion.

Nationalism is religion

Law is religion

Morality is religion.

Atheism is religion as Buddhist do not believe in god.

Atheism is state religion in disguise where god is replaced by government which can kill by capital punishment or by work of intelligence agent.

Without religion (set of beliefs) no one can operate his brain.

The fact that we believe in our name, parents name sibling’s name is religion because they are not scientifically verified.

The word religion is most misunderstood word.

So if everything is religion, then it loses it’s meaning.

Do you have any examples of things that aren’t associated with religion?

Ron

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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01 September 2017 01:40
 

When we blindly without question believe the meanings of the words given by dictionaries then how can we be rational and scientific?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dictionary-misery-mankind-shaikh-raisuddin?published=t

 
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