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I Can Do ALL THIS Through Him Who Gives Me Strength?

 
acs858
 
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acs858
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27 October 2017 02:16
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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27 October 2017 02:40
 

...and I should click this because ...?

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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27 October 2017 16:22
 

This is a modest nine-page piece on The Boss’s case against Islam.

An intro or statement of purpose would help.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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05 November 2017 14:13
 
acs858 - 27 October 2017 02:16 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uZJh276kk5yKaqOL3uMLMwcjTSwID7MptMn75HAse0w

A long litany of unsupported statements in what may be a fair representations of Harris’s unsupported beliefs, for example:

“Firstly, Sam Harris and Dickens and by far the majority of atheists do not claim to know the truth about anything — in fact their position hinges on this very fact — that has not been put to the test by science; atheists, unlike evangelists, simply require proof in order to believe things as true”

- Sam Harris claims it’s a truth that Islam causes violence.  He gives no proof whatsoever.

“Harris’ particularly philosophical and unapologetically logical way in expressing these views ...”

- Philosophical, yes, logical, no. 

“Sam Harris is among those that criticize religion itself, in this case specifically Islam, for its fundamental doctrines and central message which allow for its followers to use violence as a reaction to others’ nonviolent actions, while in no way standing in opposition to their beliefs in doing so.”

- This may be a fair representation of Harris’s beliefs.  Unfortunately,
a) He ignores the many instances of followers of other religions using violence as a “reaction” to others’ nonviolent actions, for example, the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Vietnam and many incursions against other countries
b) The most the example he uses most often to buttress it is the Palestinian suicide bombers - but those are reaction to much more violent Israeli actions, not “others’ nonviolent actions.”

 

“nonbelievers like myself stand beside [Christians], dumbstruck by the Muslim hordes who chant death to whole nations of the living” (Letter to a Christian Nation 91). “ (Sam Harris quote taken from article)

- Indeed, Iranians (no doubt at the behest of clergy) have been known in chant, in mass, “Death to Israel, Death to America.”  Yet (for whatever Iran’s faults, which I won’t get into here)
a) Iran has never attacked any other nation in well over 100 years.  Israel and the U.S. have attacked many countries in the last half-century, countries that weren’t threatening them, and has committed numerous mass atrocities against the people of the countries they have attacked.  The U.S. and Israel have fomented and supported war against Iran for decades.
b) the description, “hordes” Harris uses is a stereotype, a caricature - Harris often uses caricatures to describe Muslims.
c) Also, it’s inaccurate to describe the chant as against “whole nations of the living,” isn’t accurate, it just makes it sound worse

“[the tenets of Islam] ... explains what he believes to be the disproportionate amount of violence in the name Islam in comparison to Christianity and Judaism. Christianity and Judaism have added caveats that dismiss this violence, which he argues is in no way a testament to these religions but to Renaissance and Enlightenment-type thinking from the outside world that put pressure on them, whereas these movements did not extend to Islam to the same effect.”

- OK,
a) Yes, violence has been committed in the name of Islam, but is it disproportionate?  Without defining terms, it’s a completely unsupported statement.  As an example, you can (if you want to define “in the name of” in a fair way), attribute pretty much all Israeli violence to being in the name of Judaism, as Israel defines itself a Jewish state, and that’s a heck of a lot of violence relative to the number of Jews in the world.  Probably as much or more than Muslim violence in proportion to the number of Muslims.  And how would you know, without a valid way to measure violence?
b) Why is violence committed in the name of a religion worse than other violence, as implied?  There’s no evidence that it’s greater.

I could go on, but let me leave with this thought experiment:

First, there’s no evidence that Muslims are more violent than other groups in general.  In fact, a brief survey of violence (as measured by number of deaths) over the last, say 100 years, would indicate they’re more peaceful than most (lets take 40 million killed by the nazis, for starters).  Anyway, lets give ourselves (westerners) the benefit of the doubt and say Muslims are about as violent as us.

Second, lets assume Islam does cause violence, and therefore needs the “reformation” Harris demands

Third, suppose that “reformation” occurs.  Since Muslims are about equal in violence to westerners now, they will be much more peaceful after this reformation.

Then we can take resources from the people of the Muslim world, without much violent push-back.  We can just march in and take the oil from Iran, the Israelis can take the homes, land and religious sites from the Palestinians. shoot them at checkpoints and push the rest of them into permanent exile as they do now, but without as much violent reaction.  The Muslims will be peaceful about it, subdued.

I guess this is the world Harris is aiming for.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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17 December 2017 08:42
 

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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26 December 2017 15:11
 
icehorse - 17 December 2017 08:42 AM

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

Fantastic!  When did you have this epiphany, stop advocating ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and begin your advocacy of the Palestinians right of return, an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and equal rights for Palestinians under Israeli law, as well as return of lands and property confiscated from Palestinians because they aren’t Jewish?  Noting, of course, that these are all rights granted Palestinians under the UDHR but to denied them by Israel.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 December 2017 17:57
 
lynmc - 26 December 2017 03:11 PM
icehorse - 17 December 2017 08:42 AM

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

Fantastic!  When did you have this epiphany, stop advocating ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and begin your advocacy of the Palestinians right of return, an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and equal rights for Palestinians under Israeli law, as well as return of lands and property confiscated from Palestinians because they aren’t Jewish?  Noting, of course, that these are all rights granted Palestinians under the UDHR but to denied them by Israel.

You have one focal length, and it’s not sufficient. Not everything can be accurately viewed through a single focal length.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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27 December 2017 10:31
 
icehorse - 26 December 2017 05:57 PM
lynmc - 26 December 2017 03:11 PM
icehorse - 17 December 2017 08:42 AM

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

Fantastic!  When did you have this epiphany, stop advocating ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and begin your advocacy of the Palestinians right of return, an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and equal rights for Palestinians under Israeli law, as well as return of lands and property confiscated from Palestinians because they aren’t Jewish?  Noting, of course, that these are all rights granted Palestinians under the UDHR but to denied them by Israel.

You have one focal length, and it’s not sufficient. Not everything can be accurately viewed through a single focal length.

Really, that’s a meaningless ad hominem.  If you’re going to use ad hominems, you should at least say something supportable by evidence.

I repeat, when did you stop advocating the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and start supporting their rights under the UDHR?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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27 December 2017 20:07
 
lynmc - 27 December 2017 10:31 AM
icehorse - 26 December 2017 05:57 PM
lynmc - 26 December 2017 03:11 PM
icehorse - 17 December 2017 08:42 AM

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

Fantastic!  When did you have this epiphany, stop advocating ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and begin your advocacy of the Palestinians right of return, an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and equal rights for Palestinians under Israeli law, as well as return of lands and property confiscated from Palestinians because they aren’t Jewish?  Noting, of course, that these are all rights granted Palestinians under the UDHR but to denied them by Israel.

You have one focal length, and it’s not sufficient. Not everything can be accurately viewed through a single focal length.

Really, that’s a meaningless ad hominem.  If you’re going to use ad hominems, you should at least say something supportable by evidence.

I repeat, when did you stop advocating the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and start supporting their rights under the UDHR?

lyn, we’ve done this dance many times. You view this situation through a perspective that’s more constrained than the view I take. We’re just going to continue to disagree on this point. I think your context is too narrow, and it seems you think mine is too broad. Is there anything new you have to say on this, or shall we agree to disagree?

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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28 December 2017 12:57
 
icehorse - 27 December 2017 08:07 PM
lynmc - 27 December 2017 10:31 AM
icehorse - 26 December 2017 05:57 PM
lynmc - 26 December 2017 03:11 PM
icehorse - 17 December 2017 08:42 AM

lynmc,

I value human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), seems like a well thought out codification of basic human rights.

What do you value?

Fantastic!  When did you have this epiphany, stop advocating ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and begin your advocacy of the Palestinians right of return, an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip, and equal rights for Palestinians under Israeli law, as well as return of lands and property confiscated from Palestinians because they aren’t Jewish?  Noting, of course, that these are all rights granted Palestinians under the UDHR but to denied them by Israel.

You have one focal length, and it’s not sufficient. Not everything can be accurately viewed through a single focal length.

Really, that’s a meaningless ad hominem.  If you’re going to use ad hominems, you should at least say something supportable by evidence.

I repeat, when did you stop advocating the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and start supporting their rights under the UDHR?

lyn, we’ve done this dance many times. You view this situation through a perspective that’s more constrained than the view I take. We’re just going to continue to disagree on this point. I think your context is too narrow, and it seems you think mine is too broad. Is there anything new you have to say on this, or shall we agree to disagree?

As I value truth, honesty, good science, logic, fairness and yes, the UDHR, I’m sure I have nothing new to say.  I don’t think your focus is any wider than mine (noting the significant proportion of your posts that are pro-Israel, pro-ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or Islamophobic).  You can attribute thoughts to me which I don’t have (you think I think your “context” is “too broad”, rather a laugh), I don’t really care when you pile this kind of baseless assertion on top of hypocrisy (such as claiming to support the UDHR while supporting ethnic cleansing, assuming you still do).  We can disagree, but you can’t change truth by disagreeing with it.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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28 December 2017 13:08
 

lyn said:

As I value truth, honesty, good science, logic, fairness and yes, the UDHR, I’m sure I have nothing new to say.  I don’t think your focus is any wider than mine (noting the significant proportion of your posts that are pro-Israel, pro-ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or Islamophobic).  You can attribute thoughts to me which I don’t have (you think I think your “context” is “too broad”, rather a laugh), I don’t really care when you pile this kind of baseless assertion on top of hypocrisy (such as claiming to support the UDHR while supporting ethnic cleansing, assuming you still do).  We can disagree, but you can’t change truth by disagreeing with it.

The Palestinians unilaterally declared war on Israel when they voted in Hamas and Hamas’s charter. When you’re being attacked, you cannot be said to be practicing apartheid. As for “ethnic cleansing”, please tell me the definition you’re using and cite examples of Israel committing acts of ethnic cleansing. As for me being “Islamophobic”, well that’s a fundamentally dishonest term. I will be happy to acknowledge that I think Islam is a horrible collection of ideas, but that’s not a “phobic” response, that’s just a critical analysis of the ideas.

As for the broad response, Muslims are systematically driving out non-Muslim indigenous peoples throughout the ME. IMO, we must look at the Israel situation in this broader context.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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15 January 2018 13:23
 
icehorse - 28 December 2017 01:08 PM

lyn said:

As I value truth, honesty, good science, logic, fairness and yes, the UDHR, I’m sure I have nothing new to say.  I don’t think your focus is any wider than mine (noting the significant proportion of your posts that are pro-Israel, pro-ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or Islamophobic).  You can attribute thoughts to me which I don’t have (you think I think your “context” is “too broad”, rather a laugh), I don’t really care when you pile this kind of baseless assertion on top of hypocrisy (such as claiming to support the UDHR while supporting ethnic cleansing, assuming you still do).  We can disagree, but you can’t change truth by disagreeing with it.

The Palestinians unilaterally declared war on Israel when they voted in Hamas and Hamas’s charter. When you’re being attacked, you cannot be said to be practicing apartheid. As for “ethnic cleansing”, please tell me the definition you’re using and cite examples of Israel committing acts of ethnic cleansing. As for me being “Islamophobic”, well that’s a fundamentally dishonest term. I will be happy to acknowledge that I think Islam is a horrible collection of ideas, but that’s not a “phobic” response, that’s just a critical analysis of the ideas.

As for the broad response, Muslims are systematically driving out non-Muslim indigenous peoples throughout the ME. IMO, we must look at the Israel situation in this broader context.

Unless you specify an event or series of events as well as a rationale for why they provide “context”, “looking at the Israel situation in this broader context” is just a meaningless excuse for Israel’s ethnic cleansing.  Right, you support the UDHR, except when Israel violates it that is.

A few posts by you that are all about fomenting fear or hate of Islam/Muslims, and contain no “critical analysis” of “Islamic” ideas.  I’m sure I could find more if I looked at the posts on topics you didn’t initiate.  Ergo, your fallacious definition of Islamophobia as merely criticism of Islamic ideas is itself likely duplicitous.
CBC: Shariah… Not to be Feared
Ben Shapiro, Berkeley, and “hate speech”
“Terrorism” is a red-herring, it’s about values

Ethnic cleansing: the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous. (wikipedia)
Whole books have been written on Israeli ethnic cleansing, for example, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine,” by Ilan Pappe.  More recent examples are well documented (also examples of apartheid practices, since you bring it up) are well documented by journalists and human rights investigators, for example

https://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-amps-up-ethnic-cleansing-in-order-to-further-judaize-jerusalem/5622596 and https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20171123_israel_no_longer_bothers_with_legal_proceedings

There is nothing in the definition of apartheid that precludes it being practiced during war or while under attack (not that Israel can be considered “under attack” when it’s the party that attacked first).  As for the Palestinians declaring war on Israel by voting for Hamas, Israel had been making war on Palestinians since its inception (see, for example, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”) so if that’s the case, Palestinians were only declaring a war that already existed for decades.  One could equally make the argument that Israeli Jews declared war on Palestinians by electing any number of the mass murderers they elected as prime minister.

As I’ve said before, you can disagree, but you can’t change the truth by disagreeing with it.  Any more than deliberate ignorance of Israel’s ethnic cleansing and brutal occupation of Palestinian territories means these historical and contemporaneous facts didn’t happen, or that denying anthropogenic climate change means it isn’t happening.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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15 January 2018 13:44
 

lyn:

As I’ve said before, you can disagree, but you can’t change the truth by disagreeing with it.

The “truth” and facts aren’t synonymous. Neither of us, and frankly no one in the world, has “the truth” when it comes to this situation. You use some subset of the facts to arrive at your version of “the truth”, and I use a different subset of the facts to arrive at mine.

We’ve done this dance before, it strikes me that it boils down to a disagreement over how much of the broader context should be considered. I will say this however, there are an awful lot of Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians living peacefully and successfully in Israel. And there are a lot of 4th generation “Palestinians” living in refugee camps in the Arab and/or Muslim controlled areas in the region. Just those two facts alone make claims of ethnic cleansing hard to square.

lyn:

A few posts by you that are all about fomenting fear or hate of Islam/Muslims, and contain no “critical analysis” of “Islamic” ideas.

A lot of sloppiness in these accusations, but let me try to address them:

- As I’ve said before, Islam is a set of ideas, and I make no bones about hating this set of ideas.
- My analysis of Islamic ideas stems from two foundational claims that Muslims themselves make:
  1 - The Quran is the perfect, final, timeless, and unalterable word of god.
  2 - Muhammad was god’s messenger, and his life is the ideal role model for how humans ought to behave

Based on the ground rules that Muslims set, and having read translations of the Quran and biographies of Muhammad, I’m very comfortable saying that I hate this collection of ideas. They are supremacist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, and intolerant, just to name a few of their characteristics.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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19 January 2018 13:54
 
icehorse - 15 January 2018 01:44 PM

lyn:

As I’ve said before, you can disagree, but you can’t change the truth by disagreeing with it.

The “truth” and facts aren’t synonymous. Neither of us, and frankly no one in the world, has “the truth” when it comes to this situation. You use some subset of the facts to arrive at your version of “the truth”, and I use a different subset of the facts to arrive at mine.

 

No one has the complete, detailed minutiae of facts, but it’s ridiculous to assert that no one has “the truth” in this situation.  One can easily arrive at a broad truth based on facts.  As noted below, your “subset of facts” contains falsehoods and ignores major historical events.  The “truth” can be arrived at, but not by repeating falsehoods, or ignoring facts and logic.

We’ve done this dance before, it strikes me that it boils down to a disagreement over how much of the broader context should be considered. I will say this however, there are an awful lot of Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians living peacefully and successfully in Israel. And there are a lot of 4th generation “Palestinians” living in refugee camps in the Arab and/or Muslim controlled areas in the region. Just those two facts alone make claims of ethnic cleansing hard to square.

 

Rather than “not squaring” with the claims of ethnic cleansing, the fact that there are Palestinians living in refugee camps supports the assertion that the Palestinians were forced to become refugees - i.e., ethnically cleansed from somewhere.  Asserting that this doesn’t square with claims of ethnic cleansing is really, really poor logic.  Contemporaneous witness statements prove they were ethnically cleansed from what’s now Israel by Israel’s zionist founders.  Neither does the the fact that a small minority of Palestinians weren’t ethnically cleansed from Israel contradict the assertion that the majority were - a similar false logic would be to claim the fact that some Jews survived the Nazi holocaust “doesn’t square with” the assertion that a genocide occurred.  So by denying this ethnic cleansing, you’re either outright lying or deliberately ignoring facts.

 

lyn:

A few posts by you that are all about fomenting fear or hate of Islam/Muslims, and contain no “critical analysis” of “Islamic” ideas.

A lot of sloppiness in these accusations, but let me try to address them:

- As I’ve said before, Islam is a set of ideas, and I make no bones about hating this set of ideas.
- My analysis of Islamic ideas stems from two foundational claims that Muslims themselves make:
  1 - The Quran is the perfect, final, timeless, and unalterable word of god.
  2 - Muhammad was god’s messenger, and his life is the ideal role model for how humans ought to behave

Based on the ground rules that Muslims set, and having read translations of the Quran and biographies of Muhammad, I’m very comfortable saying that I hate this collection of ideas. They are supremacist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, and intolerant, just to name a few of their characteristics.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but this is lousy try at addressing whether or not many of your posts amount to fomenting hate and fear of Muslims (here’s another one - “Do Muslims want to Assimilate?”) rather than critical analysis of Islam.  And as a criticism of Islam, it’s kind of shallow rather than a good analysis.  Not that I care what criticisms you have of Islam - you’ve demonstrated biased approach (as well as poor logic and deliberate ignorance of facts on related subjects) from the start, so I don’t think your opinions matter.

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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19 January 2018 15:11
 
lynmc - 19 January 2018 01:54 PM

Rather than “not squaring” with the claims of ethnic cleansing, the fact that there are Palestinians living in refugee camps supports the assertion that the Palestinians were forced to become refugees - i.e., ethnically cleansed from somewhere.  Asserting that this doesn’t square with claims of ethnic cleansing is really, really poor logic.  Contemporaneous witness statements prove they were ethnically cleansed from what’s now Israel by Israel’s zionist founders.  Neither does the the fact that a small minority of Palestinians weren’t ethnically cleansed from Israel contradict the assertion that the majority were - a similar false logic would be to claim the fact that some Jews survived the Nazi holocaust “doesn’t square with” the assertion that a genocide occurred.  So by denying this ethnic cleansing, you’re either outright lying or deliberately ignoring facts.

 

This often repeated claim of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is so hysterically absurd, I had long ago stopped even bothering to respond,. However, I will make an exception since you seem to be such a well read scholar of history and current events.

- As of 2006, the 1.4 Million Arab Palestinians whose parents and grandparents opted for Israeli citizenship in 1948 now have a life in Israel. As Israeli citizens, they vote in Israel’s elections and even have Israeli-Arab Knesset members. Israel subsidizes the health of all citizens (including Arabs) equally in clinics, hospitals or homes for the aged. Large families with no or low income get subsidies from Israeli Government even when an Israeli-Arab man blew himself up taking a number of innocent Israelis with him, his family began receiving welfare checks from the government since they were now without a breadwinner….. The Arabs enjoy all rights and privileges that Jews do in Israel. The only exception is that Israeli Arabs do not serve in the army. For all this Israel is accused with ethnic cleansing! 

It is possible you have no understanding of what ethnic cleansing is.  Let us look….

- Do Jews in Jordan have rights as the Arabs do?  No…  Wait a minute, there is not a single Jew in Jordan!  How is that possible?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Jordan
- How about Kuwait?  Can Jews vote there?  Trick question because they have no Jewish citizens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kuwait
- Can Jews vote in Saudi Arabia?  No.

We can go on and compare Muslim countries treatment of minorities to those in Israel, .... there is no comparison.  You also mix up Palestinians in Gaza who regularly shower Israel with Rockets and those Arab citizens living within the Israeli borders.

So by repeating untruth you only feed your own delusions but it doesn’t make it true.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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20 January 2018 06:54
 

lyn:

You’re entitled to your opinion, but this is lousy try at addressing whether or not many of your posts amount to fomenting hate and fear of Muslims (here’s another one - “Do Muslims want to Assimilate?”) rather than critical analysis of Islam.  And as a criticism of Islam, it’s kind of shallow rather than a good analysis.  Not that I care what criticisms you have of Islam - you’ve demonstrated biased approach (as well as poor logic and deliberate ignorance of facts on related subjects) from the start, so I don’t think your opinions matter.

I do not conflate Islam with Muslims as you persist in doing. Once again (with Jazz hands), Islam is a set of ideas. There are many ex-Muslims that prove this point. (Although another HUGE problem with Islam is that it declares apostasy to be a capital crime.) You say my analysis is “shallow” and you imply my analysis is bad. Is it wrong? Which of my claims concerning Islam are wrong? Is it not misogynistic? Is it not homophobic? Is it not anti-semitic? Is it not supremacist?

Tell me lyn, what’s your “good analysis”?

Next you claim I’m deliberately ignorant of the facts. Hmmmm. Which facts have I got wrong?

 
 
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