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Notes From The Underground

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3350
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
02 December 2017 08:13
 

This forum can be a very confusing place.  And rarely offers the chance to ask some of the simple questions held by newbies and veterans alike.  (Don’t kid yerselves…veteran members are just as confused as anyone.)  Knowing these questions arise in the minds of every patron, from time to time, I am compelled to create one for those too reluctant to speak up for themselves.  (Coz then maybe they will.)  Maybe it will create inroads.  And maybe it won’t.  Maybe it will promote dialogue.  Or maybe it won’t.  Maybe a few helpful hints will make navigating the moat surrounding this faulty tower a bit more enjoyable.  Or maybe, just maybe, it will provide a little shelter from the storm.

Fer starters…

Q.  Are members with most posts tallied the most popular and well liked?

A.  It’s entirely possible.  It’s also entirely possible some patrons don’t know when to shut the hell up.

Q.  Is this forum exclusively a site for atheists?

A.  Not even close.  Although, the religious conversations tend to be endless and go nowhere.  And, I’m not gonna lie to ya, some folks just don’t embarrass that easily.

Q.  Is there a good reason one member is relegated to a single thread?  I mean what’s the deal with that?

A.  Yes and no.  First of all, it’s a Jar Monkey.  Secondly, that thread is a cage of his own making.
   
Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

A.  According to the Guidelines one might be inclined to think so.  But some of us have a little something called self respect.

Q.  What is the significance of the title Notes From The Underground?

A.  Aside from the obvious reference, it’s time to bring these questions out from the shadows.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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02 December 2017 09:00
 
LadyJane - 02 December 2017 08:13 AM

Q.  Are members with most posts tallied the most popular and well liked?

A.  It’s entirely possible.  It’s also entirely possible some patrons don’t know when to shut the hell up.

Mot popular? Very unlikely. 
Most likely to post a lot of comments - some of which amount to “Ditto” or “Just sitting here picking my nose in e-public” - quite likely.

LadyJane - 02 December 2017 08:13 AM

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

A.  According to the Guidelines one might be inclined to think so.  But some of us have a little something called self respect.

Not in my book.  In my book all voices are welcomed and have equal potential.


Signed,
Perpetually Confuzled.

 
 
bigredfutbol
 
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bigredfutbol
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02 December 2017 09:01
 

I have over 5000 posts and am neither popular nor well-liked. I’m mostly just stubborn and keep coming back in spite of myself. wink

There is something of a pecking order here, and a subtly enforced culture which is somewhat unwelcoming. Which is why it doesn’t bother me in the slightest that I’m not one of the cool kids.

Anyway, good job kicking the rock over to see what scurries out.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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02 December 2017 09:17
 

Thank you for asking these questions.

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

I have thought so on occasion, especially in regards to issues of particular relevance to women.  Not by most patrons, but by some. 

[ Edited: 02 December 2017 09:24 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 09:32
 
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 09:17 AM

Thank you for asking these questions.

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

I have thought so on occasion, especially in regards to issues of particular relevance to women.  Not by most patrons, but by some.

I don’t see this occurring but I realize that as a white male I could be blind to those issues.
Can you or Lady Jane give some examples.

If it comes from me I can take the criticism.

 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 09:39
 
LadyJane - 02 December 2017 08:13 AM

Q.  Are members with most posts tallied the most popular and well liked?

A.  It’s entirely possible.  It’s also entirely possible some patrons don’t know when to shut the hell up.

I agree with other posters that the number of posts does not reflect popularity.

In addition to your comment that “...Patrons don’t know when to shut up”,
I might add that for some it may be their prime source of socialization.
For others who may find it hard to go out to a bar or coffee shop after work, Its a convenient place to go to shoot the breeze without leaving home.
For me its the latter and yes, I don’t know when to shut up.

 

 
bigredfutbol
 
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bigredfutbol
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02 December 2017 09:40
 
jdrnd - 02 December 2017 09:32 AM
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 09:17 AM

Thank you for asking these questions.

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

I have thought so on occasion, especially in regards to issues of particular relevance to women.  Not by most patrons, but by some.

I don’t see this occurring but I realize that as a white male I could be blind to those issues.
Can you or Lady Jane give some examples.

If it comes from me I can take the criticism.

Co-sign.

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 09:43
 
LadyJane - 02 December 2017 08:13 AM

Q.  Is there a good reason one member is relegated to a single thread? 

A.  The use of foul and derogatory language is contagious.

 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 09:46
 
LadyJane - 02 December 2017 08:13 AM

... Although, the religious conversations tend to be endless and go nowhere.

Its practice for real world discussions.

These endless discussions are enlightening and useful.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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02 December 2017 10:54
 
jdrnd - 02 December 2017 09:32 AM
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 09:17 AM

Thank you for asking these questions.

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

I have thought so on occasion, especially in regards to issues of particular relevance to women.  Not by most patrons, but by some.

I don’t see this occurring but I realize that as a white male I could be blind to those issues.
Can you or Lady Jane give some examples.

If it comes from me I can take the criticism.

I won’t name names.

For example—the recent Feminism thread and the de Becker thread a little while back.

On these threads that were particularly relevant to women, there seemed to be reluctance by some posters to really listen to and consider a female point of view. 

I know that I don’t always explain my position well enough, but those who were sincerely listening seemed to understand what was being said.  I do not expect agreement and welcome discussion and debate, but I do expect others to at least try to understand what I am saying.  Not to pick out single sentences out of context to make their point and then make personal and unfair accusations.  When this has happened, I found I’ve had to withdraw and retreat.

I have made the serious mistake of posting experiences that are somewhat personal, which then leaves one too open and vulnerable.  This of course is my own fault and I must therefore take some responsibility for what then results.

 

 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 11:21
 
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 10:54 AM
jdrnd - 02 December 2017 09:32 AM
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 09:17 AM

Thank you for asking these questions.

Q.  Are female posters encouraged to knuckle under in the face of a challenge?

I have thought so on occasion, especially in regards to issues of particular relevance to women.  Not by most patrons, but by some.

I don’t see this occurring but I realize that as a white male I could be blind to those issues.
Can you or Lady Jane give some examples.

If it comes from me I can take the criticism.

I won’t name names.

For example—the recent Feminism thread and the de Becker thread a little while back.

On these threads that were particularly relevant to women, there seemed to be reluctance by some posters to really listen to and consider a female point of view. 

I know that I don’t always explain my position well enough, but those who were sincerely listening seemed to understand what was being said.  I do not expect agreement and welcome discussion and debate, but I do expect others to at least try to understand what I am saying.  Not to pick out single sentences out of context to make their point and then make personal and unfair accusations.  When this has happened, I found I’ve had to withdraw and retreat.

I have made the serious mistake of posting experiences that are somewhat personal, which then leaves one too open and vulnerable.  This of course is my own fault and I must therefore take some responsibility for what then results.

I just went to the feminism thread. Its 16 pages long at this stage. Early on in the thread it appears that some posters understood your posts.
But I am not sure if the responses they gave adequately reflected an understanding of how you and other women might feel.  I will continue to read through the thread.

Also, I don’t think its bad to post personal information.  It makes us human when we do.  It also indicates that you are not portraying a persona.
I would much rather argue with someone who I think is real (i.e. that would behave the same way in real life), than someone who is behaving like a character in a novel.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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02 December 2017 11:45
 
jdrnd - 02 December 2017 11:21 AM

I just went to the feminism thread. Its 16 pages long at this stage. Early on in the thread it appears that some posters understood your posts.
But I am not sure if the responses they gave adequately reflected an understanding of how you and other women might feel.  I will continue to read through the thread.

Also, I don’t think its bad to post personal information.  It makes us human when we do.  It also indicates that you are not portraying a persona.
I would much rather argue with someone who I think is real (i.e. that would behave the same way in real life), than someone who is behaving like a character in a novel.

My interactions in the feminism thread get worse further in (some of it got sent to the Klein Bottle, my fault because I lost my temper).

I think one has to be careful with the personal information if there is an emotional aspect as it can leave one too vulnerable.  (I’m real, no persona, what you see is what you get.)


[Edit: Now I wish I hadn’t brought this up; I need to learn when to just leave things be.]

[ Edited: 02 December 2017 12:03 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
jdrnd
 
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jdrnd
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02 December 2017 12:59
 
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 11:45 AM


[Edit: Now I wish I hadn’t brought this up; I need to learn when to just leave things be.]

The issues concerning bias towards women or personal info?
whichever one you say it is, I won’t bring up unless you do.

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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02 December 2017 13:25
 

As anyone can readily imagine these things are never as easy to explain as we may think.  Not to everyone’s satisfaction anyway.  Figuring out how to convey what we mean in a way that is understandable to as many eyeballs as possible takes time.  And a great deal of patience.

Theoretically, we are all playing by the same rules.  Realistically, we are all conditioned to our environment.  This particular environment has only a few female members willing to post on a regular basis.  In my experience, upon entering, those willing to reveal personal information garnered just enough sympathy to leverage a shit shower of praise and attention while escaping the hassle of crafting cogent arguments.  And that was enough to turn many conversations into ones about themselves.  As it would turn out, as acknowledged by some and discovered by others, they were lying all the while.  Quel dommage.

This discrepancy is not merely an issue of man versus woman.  There is also the wee matter of the female hierarchy here.  Fer instance, true story, one member calls another member a jerk and it gets moved to The Klein Bottle.  Despite the fact the member referred to as a jerk isn’t even offended at being referred to as a jerk.  At almost exactly the same moment another member calls a newbie a twit and absolutely nothing happens.  That sends a bit of a mixed message which may, or may not, be the reason that newbie hasn’t posted since.  What could’ve possibly gone awry?

The impression that leaves suggests personal attacks made by some are relocated while personal attacks made by others are given a free pass.  And that does seem to be the case.  Evidenced in the way the moderator accommodates some, caters to some and frogmarches others.  And often excuses awful behaviour insisting there is more to see than what is written on these pages.

The problem is these pages are all we’ve got.  And the patrons placed on pedestals aren’t playing by the same rules.  Which means anyone appealing to decisions made by the moderator, in any case, must rely on the rules.  In order to determine a fair and steady standard.  Except for one thing.  The one who’s rewarding the pedestal riders…is also the one who created the rules.

I’m sure there’s a logical explanation as to why that is.  Maybe over the phone is where they really shine.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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02 December 2017 13:29
 
jdrnd - 02 December 2017 12:59 PM
Jan_CAN - 02 December 2017 11:45 AM


[Edit: Now I wish I hadn’t brought this up; I need to learn when to just leave things be.]

The issues concerning bias towards women or personal info?
whichever one you say it is, I won’t bring up unless you do.

About bias.  I’m rethinking because I’m not sure I should have raised this issue as I’ve made some mistakes and there are probably better examples.

It is gracious of you to give me this choice.  Please say whatever you want to.

 
 
June
 
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June
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02 December 2017 17:05
 
LadyJane - 02 December 2017 01:25 PM

As anyone can readily imagine these things are never as easy to explain as we may think.  Not to everyone’s satisfaction anyway.  Figuring out how to convey what we mean in a way that is understandable to as many eyeballs as possible takes time.  And a great deal of patience.

Theoretically, we are all playing by the same rules.  Realistically, we are all conditioned to our environment.  This particular environment has only a few female members willing to post on a regular basis.  In my experience, upon entering, those willing to reveal personal information garnered just enough sympathy to leverage a shit shower of praise and attention while escaping the hassle of crafting cogent arguments.  And that was enough to turn many conversations into ones about themselves.  As it would turn out, as acknowledged by some and discovered by others, they were lying all the while.  Quel dommage.

This discrepancy is not merely an issue of man versus woman.  There is also the wee matter of the female hierarchy here.  Fer instance, true story, one member calls another member a jerk and it gets moved to The Klein Bottle.  Despite the fact the member referred to as a jerk isn’t even offended at being referred to as a jerk.  At almost exactly the same moment another member calls a newbie a twit and absolutely nothing happens.  That sends a bit of a mixed message which may, or may not, be the reason that newbie hasn’t posted since.  What could’ve possibly gone awry?

The impression that leaves suggests personal attacks made by some are relocated while personal attacks made by others are given a free pass.  And that does seem to be the case.  Evidenced in the way the moderator accommodates some, caters to some and frogmarches others.  And often excuses awful behaviour insisting there is more to see than what is written on these pages.

The problem is these pages are all we’ve got.  And the patrons placed on pedestals aren’t playing by the same rules.  Which means anyone appealing to decisions made by the moderator, in any case, must rely on the rules.  In order to determine a fair and steady standard.  Except for one thing.  The one who’s rewarding the pedestal riders…is also the one who created the rules.

I’m sure there’s a logical explanation as to why that is.  Maybe over the phone is where they really shine.


Good observations as usual, LadyJane.

Some of my impressions are that I’m convinced without doubt,  after following this forum now for several years decisions are made favorably towards posters based on politics.  Not religion or god!  If the female is of the “correct” political persuasion she is recognized as fully human and worthy of extended latitude, even encouraged to carry on.  Any insults given by her or of a male with a shared belief do not matter for their hearts and motivations are pure and in the right place.  If the female (or male) slants in the “wrong” direction, then no, a malevolent creature is assumed to be behind the keyboard.    That was a difficult lesson I had to learn after leaving the faith,  chosen for me at birth.  I assumed, and wrongly,  that to be an atheist the divide between right and left was equally divided.    Not so, or even close.

Signed,

Persanna JuneBugs

 
 
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