Soooo…. how are we gonna change society like Sam proposed?

 
Serculis
 
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Serculis
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21 March 2018 17:38
 

After watching Sam’s lecture video on the nonexistence of free will, I’ve always fantasised about a world where so many of our problems that originate in blame and responsibility go away. Much more funding would go psychologists to discover new methods of rehabilitating even the worst criminals, victims would be much less traumatised knowing that their perpetrator wasn’t in control of their actions, so many emotional arguments in the entire world would cut down when people realise there’s nobody to blame and shame. I can’t even be bothered to advertise the benefits of such a world because there’s too much to talk about.

But…. how on earth do you even spread the idea of determinism?

I’ve known about it for like half a year now, and the only people I’ve told are two of my best friends. They don’t even seem to care much about its implications. I can’t tell anyone else because they wouldn’t understand the idea whatsoever or they would imagine me to be crazy.

All I see is a few people in the dark corner casually discussing the most life-changing thought-provoking fact of the universe, instead of actually promoting this idea. But of course, I can’t blame them, it’s such an awkward idea to spread.

It’s frustrating that we have this life-altering fact right here that can change the world for the better, but we’re not (or we can’t) do anything about it.

Even Jordan Peterson admits there’s no such thing as free will, yet as intellectual as he is, never talks about it. And he’s all for strengthening the individual!

Why on earth is this enlightening fact so dead? What can we ACTUALLY do to change the world with this? Anyone else completely confused??? I couldn’t even find anyone talking about this pink elephant on Sam Harris’s forum ITSELF!

 
SamStone
 
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SamStone
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16 April 2018 18:52
 

Lots of philosophers and scientists disagree with Sam on this point,  and many disagree that determinism is true at a fundamental level.

For example,  if determinism is true, it means that all the information in the universe must be present at the beginning (See Laplace’s Demon for an explication of this.)  But we also know that the universe began in a very low information state.  Our current theories of how the universe will end also require it to be completely devoid of information.  Yet at this moment in time, the universe is highly complex, with a whole lot of information in it.

So where did all this information come fom?  And without it,  how can you know the future, which is a requirement of determinism?

Complicating this is that as we’ve grown to understand chaos and complexity, the need for indeterminacy is even more apparent.  At the quantum level, things are fundamentally indeterminate.  And yet, the quantum level has vast effects on us.  If a mutation of a cell is generated by a random event like the decay of a proton,  then there was no way to predict that mutation.  And since complex systems are extremely sensitive to small changes in input and can have no -linear responses,  that single random event could trigger a new species that collapses an ecosystem, or it could give someone cancer who otherwise would have gone on to save or destroy the world.  Those effects are completely real, and yet non-deterministic.

So the core of the chain of complexity that led to us must be fed with a certain amount of randomness,  and therefore it is utterly unique, and utterly unpredictable by any deterministic chain that might have been available before the event happened.

 

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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16 April 2018 20:47
 
SamStone - 16 April 2018 06:52 PM

Lots of philosophers and scientists disagree with Sam on this point,  and many disagree that determinism is true at a fundamental level.

For example,  if determinism is true, it means that all the information in the universe must be present at the beginning (See Laplace’s Demon for an explication of this.)  But we also know that the universe began in a very low information state.  Our current theories of how the universe will end also require it to be completely devoid of information.  Yet at this moment in time, the universe is highly complex, with a whole lot of information in it.

So where did all this information come fom?  And without it,  how can you know the future, which is a requirement of determinism?

Complicating this is that as we’ve grown to understand chaos and complexity, the need for indeterminacy is even more apparent.  At the quantum level, things are fundamentally indeterminate.  And yet, the quantum level has vast effects on us.  If a mutation of a cell is generated by a random event like the decay of a proton,  then there was no way to predict that mutation.  And since complex systems are extremely sensitive to small changes in input and can have no -linear responses,  that single random event could trigger a new species that collapses an ecosystem, or it could give someone cancer who otherwise would have gone on to save or destroy the world.  Those effects are completely real, and yet non-deterministic.

So the core of the chain of complexity that led to us must be fed with a certain amount of randomness,  and therefore it is utterly unique, and utterly unpredictable by any deterministic chain that might have been available before the event happened.

Wow, I think everything you said relating to science was pretty much completely wrong or misused.

 

 
 
SamStone
 
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SamStone
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17 April 2018 12:55
 

Details, please.

 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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17 April 2018 13:51
 
SamStone - 17 April 2018 12:55 PM

Details, please.

GAD’s a super smart guy but fatally flawed in this one respect. Thanks, SamStone, for presenting an argument cogent enough for us to have GAD offering up his brand of ignorance.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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17 April 2018 20:15
 
SamStone - 17 April 2018 12:55 PM

Details, please.

I’ll tell you like I tell my kids, on that computer (or phone) you are using you have the knowledge of the entire human race at finger tips, use it for something other then watching people do idiotic shit.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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17 April 2018 20:22
 
nonverbal - 17 April 2018 01:51 PM
SamStone - 17 April 2018 12:55 PM

Details, please.

GAD’s a super smart guy but fatally flawed in this one respect. Thanks, SamStone, for presenting an argument cogent enough for us to have GAD offering up his brand of ignorance.

More like GAD got smart and after spending many years and 10’s of thousands of hours looking up facts for people on the internet who were ever only interested in their own facts.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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18 April 2018 09:32
 
GAD - 17 April 2018 08:22 PM
nonverbal - 17 April 2018 01:51 PM
SamStone - 17 April 2018 12:55 PM

Details, please.

GAD’s a super smart guy but fatally flawed in this one respect. Thanks, SamStone, for presenting an argument cogent enough for us to have GAD offering up his brand of ignorance.

More like GAD got smart and after spending many years and 10’s of thousands of hours looking up facts for people on the internet who were ever only interested in their own facts.


No, more like GAD’s a hard core dogmatist and hates religion while zealously demonstrating the worst, most problematic aspects of its practice.

OTOH GAD’s also funny and would probably be a lot of fun at a party, so there’s that at least ... heh.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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18 April 2018 09:44
 
SkepticX - 18 April 2018 09:32 AM
GAD - 17 April 2018 08:22 PM
nonverbal - 17 April 2018 01:51 PM
SamStone - 17 April 2018 12:55 PM

Details, please.

GAD’s a super smart guy but fatally flawed in this one respect. Thanks, SamStone, for presenting an argument cogent enough for us to have GAD offering up his brand of ignorance.

More like GAD got smart and after spending many years and 10’s of thousands of hours looking up facts for people on the internet who were ever only interested in their own facts.


No, more like GAD’s a hard core dogmatist and hates religion while zealously demonstrating the worst, most problematic aspects of its practice.

OTOH GAD’s also funny and would probably be a lot of fun at a party, so there’s that at least ... heh.

At least I’m not you, that would be demonstrating the worst of assholes on internet.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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18 April 2018 11:29
 

Let us not be so thinned skinned on a newbie’s thread, please.

Attack the argument not the poster. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. yada yada. The Klein Bottle is always available 24/7.

Yes, we do talk about the elephant here.