< 1 2 3 4 > 
 
   
 

Struggle - an integral aspect of the laws of nature

 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3950
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
24 March 2018 08:33
 

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge.  For any prey animal, there are a limited number of predators.  Prey always outnumber predators, usually by a very wide margin.  How many mice have never in their lives been attacked by an owl?  A snake?  A cat?  That evolution has pruned them to be less prone to individual attack in their movements and mannerisms is just the way it works.  The vast majority of prey animals never actually become prey.  How else would the species survive?

It is not so much a struggle to survive as it is just a challenge.  The mouse that quickly scurries across an open patch of ground to hide in the grasses on the other side is just doing what comes naturally, pruned and honed by natural selection, rising to the challenge of open ground.  Those who avoid becoming prey survive and reproduce.  That a small minority are eaten by predators is more than made up for by the much larger number of survivors who never become prey.  Their genes are passed along, and their children scurry across open patches of ground because that’s what they do; it’s in their genes.

Struggle has not created beauty in my life.  Living my life is the exploring and appreciation of the beauty that is all around me.  I enjoy singing, and that ability was inherited.  I learned to play guitar in order to accompany my singing, but it was not a struggle to learn to play guitar, it was a challenge.  It only required study and practice.  I don’t think Einstein was struggling with his theories, I think he was rising to the challenge of understanding nature, and finding beauty in that understanding.  I see the same for other scientists, artists, etc.  They appreciated the challenge and embraced it, finding beauty in their discoveries.

People are vastly different in what moves them, just as they are vastly different in their personal descriptions of their own lives, as opposed to perhaps the description that might be given by a close and lifelong friend of such a person.  One might use “struggle” while the other may not.

 
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  22653
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
24 March 2018 09:23
 

I will admit that “struggle” is subjective, anthropomorphic, and poetic.  However, the basic idea of conflict or challenge or competition for scarce resources still lies at the root of the evolution of life, and sentient beings experience that reality in some way.  Life isn’t easy, but it is that challenge (which is sometimes unpleasant for the conscious creature) that leads to advancement, growth, maturity, and positive change.

 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  2254
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
24 March 2018 09:36
 
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge. . . .

Haven’t you ever found yourself struggling against a virus or other organism that seems to be trying to kill you?

At times, we struggle to maintain good health and feed, clothe and shelter ourselves, or at least most of us seem to—certainly not every minute, but at times.

 
 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3950
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
24 March 2018 11:38
 
nonverbal - 24 March 2018 09:36 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge. . . .

Haven’t you ever found yourself struggling against a virus or other organism that seems to be trying to kill you?

I had pneumonia twice during my early teens.  I rested.  My immune system and antibiotics from the doctor carried me through the infections.  I did not consider that struggling. 

At times, we struggle to maintain good health and feed, clothe and shelter ourselves, or at least most of us seem to—certainly not every minute, but at times.

Perhaps a difference in background.  I grew up poor (without realizing it at the time).  In my early childhood, my parents rented housing that was outside of town with plenty of room for a large garden.  We raised chickens and rabbits.  There were three children, and we all had chores.  But we did not struggle.

I’m not saying that my life is typical, but I’ve never seen myself as struggling with any part of it, merely dealing with its challenges.  For me, “struggle” carries with it the implication that one might find oneself on the losing side of the struggle.  I’ve never entertained the possibility that I might not prevail over any challenge that I should meet along my journey.

 
 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  2254
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
24 March 2018 11:41
 
bbearren - 24 March 2018 11:38 AM
nonverbal - 24 March 2018 09:36 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge. . . .

Haven’t you ever found yourself struggling against a virus or other organism that seems to be trying to kill you?

I had pneumonia twice during my early teens.  I rested.  My immune system and antibiotics from the doctor carried me through the infections.  I did not consider that struggling. 

At times, we struggle to maintain good health and feed, clothe and shelter ourselves, or at least most of us seem to—certainly not every minute, but at times.

Perhaps a difference in background.  I grew up poor (without realizing it at the time).  In my early childhood, my parents rented housing that was outside of town with plenty of room for a large garden.  We raised chickens and rabbits.  There were three children, and we all had chores.  But we did not struggle.

I’m not saying that my life is typical, but I’ve never seen myself as struggling with any part of it, merely dealing with its challenges.  For me, “struggle” carries with it the implication that one might find oneself on the losing side of the struggle.  I’ve never entertained the possibility that I might not prevail over any challenge that I should meet along my journey.

Congratulations on having found life to be like Disneyland. Will you be living there for all eternity?

 
 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3950
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
24 March 2018 11:50
 
nonverbal - 24 March 2018 11:41 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 11:38 AM
nonverbal - 24 March 2018 09:36 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge. . . .

Haven’t you ever found yourself struggling against a virus or other organism that seems to be trying to kill you?

I had pneumonia twice during my early teens.  I rested.  My immune system and antibiotics from the doctor carried me through the infections.  I did not consider that struggling. 

At times, we struggle to maintain good health and feed, clothe and shelter ourselves, or at least most of us seem to—certainly not every minute, but at times.

Perhaps a difference in background.  I grew up poor (without realizing it at the time).  In my early childhood, my parents rented housing that was outside of town with plenty of room for a large garden.  We raised chickens and rabbits.  There were three children, and we all had chores.  But we did not struggle.

I’m not saying that my life is typical, but I’ve never seen myself as struggling with any part of it, merely dealing with its challenges.  For me, “struggle” carries with it the implication that one might find oneself on the losing side of the struggle.  I’ve never entertained the possibility that I might not prevail over any challenge that I should meet along my journey.

Congratulations on having found life to be like Disneyland. Will you be living there for all eternity?

I’ve never had the ability to develop a negative outlook on life.  A genetic deficiency, no doubt.  And experience; growing up I often heard my father say, “We can fix that.”  Just plain, matter-of-fact statement.  And he always managed to fix it.

He couldn’t fix his Alzheimer’s, but that was the only thing that he couldn’t fix.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
Avatar
 
 
Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5562
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2018 08:37
 
SkepticX - 24 March 2018 06:07 AM
Brick Bungalow - 23 March 2018 03:29 PM
hannahtoo - 23 March 2018 02:42 PM
LadyJane - 23 March 2018 12:52 PM

The evolutionary struggle for existence is literally the way we understand natural selection.  Although, I highly suspect the original post was at least partly metaphorical and intended to elicit personal tales of overcoming adversity and facing challenging obstacles.  We, as organic specimens, are part of a natural system of processes that occur within the laws of nature.  And humans are enamoured with all aspects of nature.  The laws of nature do not reciprocate the feeling.  They couldn’t care less.  I guess that leaves nothing else to do but figure things out and share our findings.

It’s possible that the pop sci view of nature promotes certain memes that are catchy, but not strictly true.  When I sit on my porch, I don’t see just struggling and competition, though that is one aspect.  Maybe I’m jumping too far, but I think that seeing life framed in terms of difficulty is a mindset, and it relates to how one has been taught, plus social experiences, more than studying nature.

I think this is true. Evolution equals ‘survival of the fittest’ on some occasions but more frequently it’s survival of the sneaky or more resourceful or lucky. Many social species reward strength and speed less than they do patience and cunning.


That’s a six vs. a half dozen thing though ... eh?

It only seems to fall outside of the “fittest” if we impose our own baggage on what that constitutes.

Nature doesn’t impose ideology like that though.

Which reminds me of the Ringworld Pierson’s Puppeteers someone just brought up a bit back, and their program to breed luck into humans.

I felt like the inference of ‘fit’ was pretty clear. Measurable attributes like speed and strength that humans might endeavor to improve with exercise. We can re arrange definitions if you like but I think the point would still stand. Similarly we can unpack ‘struggle’ in different ways but I think it’s more productive to accept the working definition provided by the context of the premise. Just for efficiency.

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  8401
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
26 March 2018 11:11
 
Brick Bungalow - 26 March 2018 08:37 AM
SkepticX - 24 March 2018 06:07 AM
Brick Bungalow - 23 March 2018 03:29 PM
hannahtoo - 23 March 2018 02:42 PM
LadyJane - 23 March 2018 12:52 PM

The evolutionary struggle for existence is literally the way we understand natural selection.  Although, I highly suspect the original post was at least partly metaphorical and intended to elicit personal tales of overcoming adversity and facing challenging obstacles.  We, as organic specimens, are part of a natural system of processes that occur within the laws of nature.  And humans are enamoured with all aspects of nature.  The laws of nature do not reciprocate the feeling.  They couldn’t care less.  I guess that leaves nothing else to do but figure things out and share our findings.

It’s possible that the pop sci view of nature promotes certain memes that are catchy, but not strictly true.  When I sit on my porch, I don’t see just struggling and competition, though that is one aspect.  Maybe I’m jumping too far, but I think that seeing life framed in terms of difficulty is a mindset, and it relates to how one has been taught, plus social experiences, more than studying nature.

I think this is true. Evolution equals ‘survival of the fittest’ on some occasions but more frequently it’s survival of the sneaky or more resourceful or lucky. Many social species reward strength and speed less than they do patience and cunning.


That’s a six vs. a half dozen thing though ... eh?

It only seems to fall outside of the “fittest” if we impose our own baggage on what that constitutes.

Nature doesn’t impose ideology like that though.

Which reminds me of the Ringworld Pierson’s Puppeteers someone just brought up a bit back, and their program to breed luck into humans.

I felt like the inference of ‘fit’ was pretty clear. Measurable attributes like speed and strength that humans might endeavor to improve with exercise. We can re arrange definitions if you like but I think the point would still stand. Similarly we can unpack ‘struggle’ in different ways but I think it’s more productive to accept the working definition provided by the context of the premise. Just for efficiency.

Fit & Fittest, in terms of evolution, is relative to the survival trait being assessed.  It doesn’t always mean stronger, faster, more agile.

 
 
sojourner
 
Avatar
 
 
sojourner
Total Posts:  5970
Joined  09-11-2012
 
 
 
26 March 2018 11:39
 
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge.


Then you have clearly never encountered clamshell packaging or learning to hook your bra in the back…

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3877
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
26 March 2018 12:42
 
NL. - 26 March 2018 11:39 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge.


Then you have clearly never encountered clamshell packaging or learning to hook your bra in the back…

Lol!

 
 
hannahtoo
 
Avatar
 
 
hannahtoo
Total Posts:  7176
Joined  15-05-2009
 
 
 
26 March 2018 15:07
 

Back to the OP, I wonder if the people named saw their art as a struggle, or if it was their joy?  For Mozart, earning financial security from his music was more the struggle than creating the music.  Perhaps EN means that struggle imbues art with a unique character which can be beautiful.  For example, the emotion of his Requiem.

 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3950
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
26 March 2018 15:40
 
Jefe - 26 March 2018 11:11 AM

Fit & Fittest, in terms of evolution, is relative to the survival trait being assessed.  It doesn’t always mean stronger, faster, more agile.

Indeed.  Tardigrade comes to mind.

 
 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3950
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
26 March 2018 15:44
 
NL. - 26 March 2018 11:39 AM
bbearren - 24 March 2018 08:33 AM

I don’t see it as struggle, I see it more as challenge.


Then you have clearly never encountered clamshell packaging or learning to hook your bra in the back…

I have encountered clamshell packaging.  My wife has usually hooked her bra in front then slipped it around to fit, when not wearing a bra that hooked in front.  Those, I think, were her favorite.

 
 
Giulio
 
Avatar
 
 
Giulio
Total Posts:  272
Joined  26-10-2016
 
 
 
27 March 2018 03:26
 

Responding in the spirit, I believe, of the OP:

The urge to separate vs to join

To be together vs to be alone

To return vs to move forward

To make sense of the world

I’ve always thought the power of algebra (look up the etymology of the word) is related to something deep about the world. Part vs whole. Stasis vs motion. Gravity vs entropy. Inside vs outside. Me vs you. All represent constructive dynamic tensions - a fabric we inhabit.

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  22653
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
27 March 2018 04:20
 
hannahtoo - 26 March 2018 03:07 PM

Back to the OP, I wonder if the people named saw their art as a struggle, or if it was their joy?  For Mozart, earning financial security from his music was more the struggle than creating the music.  Perhaps EN means that struggle imbues art with a unique character which can be beautiful.  For example, the emotion of his Requiem.

There is a struggle in creating.  Edison said (I paraphrase) that creating was 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.  The basic fact is conflict within one’s environment, and in sentient beings that is often processed and experienced as some form of struggle or hardship.  Life generally isn’t easy.  Doesn’t mean we are overcome - instead, as a whole, we are overcomers, and that makes us who we are.  We have defeats, but more victories, and we advance, evolve, create, innovate.

 
 < 1 2 3 4 >