Genetics question about perceived sexuality

 
FaithlessOne
 
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FaithlessOne
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24 March 2018 14:20
 

    My limited understanding is that with living things with a “male” and a “female” counterpart, that there is/are gene(s) which at pre-birth moment work to force the developing embryo to be either female or male.

    Since in nature, there are cases of same sex interested animals just as with humans, I have postulated the following idea.

    With regards to sexual partner preferences, if the gene(s) work correctly you get a “male wants female” or “female wants male” scenario, but if the gene(s) slightly (variable) malfunction, the person (or in nature, wild animal) could find itself in the following condition, it’s body might exhibit male or female outward features, but it’s Brain would perceive itself as (again variable) the opposite.

    Bruce Jenner (super decathlon winner and Wheaties Box guy) is now Caitlyn Jenner, here is a case where a person was able (through surgery) to rectify this genetic malfunction (AND I MEAN NO DISRESPECT) and make the body match the mind. (color blindness) which I suffer from is a genetic malfunction of a sort as well.

    I personally know a nice guy who used to be a nice lady, and started out dating women (and was termed a lesbian)  she undertook surgery to be altered to be male and began taking male steroids and now has a full beard and also has a female wife (this would be considered hetero standard) to anyone who did not know he used to be a “she”.. 

    The easiest way to explain how I (think) the genetics works is this: 
Imagine you are a average hetero male, you like girls and are dating them.  You get involved in a terrible accident, your body is utterly destroyed, but your brain is completely intact, and as fortune would have it, a beautiful young woman with your near exact blood type/match suffers a massive brain stroke and is totally without brain function and kept “alive” via machines.

    Your family allows your (average hetero brain) to be placed inside the body of this unfortunate beautiful young woman.

You survive the operation, you wake up, you look in the mirror and you see a face you would normally be “hitting on” big time, but it is in fact your own.  So, you are now a beautiful woman (body wise).

Do you for one second think you would now want a man’s sexual attention/affection?

No, you would not, you would (Still) be attracted to women, what to do?

You would be by your actions (and outward appearance) now be redefined as a lesbian.

Sexuality is not a “choice” or a “lifestyle” I believe it is forced upon you via your genetics.

I have posted this here in the hopes Mr. Harris might offer his take on my “theory”.

I have the utmost respect and judge others solely on their treatment of others, this is only to see if my thoughts have any weight.

Kind Regards,

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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24 March 2018 17:40
 

Sam Harris does not post on this forum.  He only allows it to exist.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  However, in the transplant scenario, probably the male body hormones would affect the female brain, leading to a less-than-clear-cut conclusion.  But I think it is an interesting idea for a scifi story.  The person might be termed “queer,” meaning not traditional, I think.

What is your question, specifically?  Is it whether SH (or anyone else) agrees?

[ Edited: 25 March 2018 06:26 by hannahtoo]
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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24 March 2018 19:05
 

Sexual attraction is not a “choice” or a “lifestyle” it is genetics. That said, genetics produces a wider range of attractions then just male or female and people are adaptable leaving room for “choice” and “lifestyle”.

 
 
FaithlessOne
 
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24 March 2018 20:46
 

I am looking for a geneticist’s opinion really.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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25 March 2018 00:41
 

In almost all social vertebrates we know, sex is not a binary thing: bisexual behavior is the norm, not the exception in mammals. There are of course visible cases of hermaphrodism, but they don’t necessarily translate into one sexual orientation or another.
We have identified a number of genes that make it more likely that the carrier will be bi/homosexually inclined - but the statistical effect is small.
Rather, it seems to be a question when during embryonal development and later growth certain hormones are expressed and affect both the brain and the genitalia. Why these hormones are expressed is still an open question, but it is likely that outside factor play a significant role.
I agree with Hannah that a brain transplant into a body of different sex would in time lead to a change in sexual self-perception.

 
 
FaithlessOne
 
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26 March 2018 14:00
 
Twissel - 25 March 2018 12:41 AM

In almost all social vertebrates we know, sex is not a binary thing: bisexual behavior is the norm, not the exception in mammals. There are of course visible cases of hermaphrodism, but they don’t necessarily translate into one sexual orientation or another.
We have identified a number of genes that make it more likely that the carrier will be bi/homosexually inclined - but the statistical effect is small.
Rather, it seems to be a question when during embryonal development and later growth certain hormones are expressed and affect both the brain and the genitalia. Why these hormones are expressed is still an open question, but it is likely that outside factor play a significant role.
I agree with Hannah that a brain transplant into a body of different sex would in time lead to a change in sexual self-perception.

The sexual preferences/behavior of a person who underwent a brain transplant into a body of a different sex would (not in time), but rather instantly give the outward appearance of a homosexual preference.

As to how they would perceive themselves, once they came to grips with their body change they would accept their designation as homosexual even though brain-wise they remained heterosexual.


My point is this.

There is no such thing as gay or lesbian (these are constructs) one’s brain is always (minus the genetic malfunction and it’s impact) always heterosexual, they are merely sometimes trapped inside a body which does not jive with their brain.

Bruce Jenner underwent surgery to allow his body to match up with his(now her) brain.

I predict within the next 50 years the concept of gay/lesbian will be completely abandoned as a descriptor.

I doubt medically referring to it as being handicapped (like with colorblindness or similar) would ever catch on, but technically it is a genetic error causing event.

Fixable only via radical surgery (in the case of a brain fully developed for the opposite type of body) or embracing a LGBT lifestyle in the case of the brain only partially being de-synced from the body.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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26 March 2018 15:08
 
FaithlessOne - 26 March 2018 02:00 PM

My point is this.

There is no such thing as gay or lesbian (these are constructs) one’s brain is always (minus the genetic malfunction and it’s impact) always heterosexual, they are merely sometimes trapped inside a body which does not jive with their brain.

Bruce Jenner underwent surgery to allow his body to match up with his(now her) brain.

I predict within the next 50 years the concept of gay/lesbian will be completely abandoned as a descriptor.

I doubt medically referring to it as being handicapped (like with colorblindness or similar) would ever catch on, but technically it is a genetic error causing event.

Fixable only via radical surgery (in the case of a brain fully developed for the opposite type of body) or embracing a LGBT lifestyle in the case of the brain only partially being de-synced from the body.

No, everyone’s brain is not heterosexual.

Human sexuality is a complicated and fascinating thing.  Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing and there are many variations.  There is no simple formula or set of definitions that consistently describe all of these variations, and science is still working on understanding and describing these.  The challenge for societies is to acknowledge that differences exist and to accept people as they are and not force them to conform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation

 

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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26 March 2018 15:25
 

I also disagree with your definition of gay or lesbian being a brain trapped in the wrong gender body.  My guess is that homosexuals are aroused by others who have bodies like themselves, rather than being attracted to a body not like themselves.  That’s not heterosexual thinking.

While sexual orientation surely genetic roots, it can also have psycho-social aspects.  It is far from simple. 

And what of bisexuality?

 
FaithlessOne
 
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FaithlessOne
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26 March 2018 15:32
 

I disagree.

Nature, when functioning correctly with regards to Male/Female animals has no gender fluidity.

I certainly see how hard it would be for some to see this as a medical condition (impacted by nurture? certainly possible) and not a life style choice, (It is not a life style choice).

I was hoping to get someone in genetics who had some experience researching this, and so put my question here.

I will try to actually find someone with the knowledge and skill set to pose my question to directly.

Kind Regards to all.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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26 March 2018 16:29
 
FaithlessOne - 26 March 2018 03:32 PM

I disagree.

Nature, when functioning correctly with regards to Male/Female animals has no gender fluidity.

I certainly see how hard it would be for some to see this as a medical condition (impacted by nurture? certainly possible) and not a life style choice, (It is not a life style choice).

I was hoping to get someone in genetics who had some experience researching this, and so put my question here.

I will try to actually find someone with the knowledge and skill set to pose my question to directly.

Kind Regards to all.

(There is an abundance of scientific papers regarding this subject area available online.)

It sounds to me that you are making a moral/value judgement with the phrase “Nature, when functioning correctly ...”.  One thing common in nature is variation and diversity.

 

 
 
sojourner
 
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27 March 2018 08:05
 
FaithlessOne - 26 March 2018 03:32 PM

I disagree.

Nature, when functioning correctly with regards to Male/Female animals has no gender fluidity.

I certainly see how hard it would be for some to see this as a medical condition (impacted by nurture? certainly possible) and not a life style choice, (It is not a life style choice).

I was hoping to get someone in genetics who had some experience researching this, and so put my question here.

I will try to actually find someone with the knowledge and skill set to pose my question to directly.

Kind Regards to all.


Waaaait… I saw Jurassic Park. That is the kind of thinking that gets you eaten by rogue dinosaurs homey.


I’m teasing, of course. And as I’m not sure whether or not this topic is personal for you - maybe it’s something that you’re researching due to a friend or family member, for example - let me say that I hope you find whatever answers you’re looking for, but agree that looking for research papers or news articles would be more productive, as I don’t think there are any definitive answers on this topic and even the average geneticist probably wouldn’t be able to give you a concrete answer (genetic testing can identify things such as recessive chromosomal disorders, but when you get into things like gender identity, I think that is the purview of a small number of scientists working in a research setting, and even they won’t have a unified opinion on the topic.)


I did see this article recently regarding gender identity and genetics, although again, this is one piece of research regarding a very broad topic.


At a personal level, this is totally anecdotal, but I do think there is something notably different about the gender of people who identify as transgender. Unfortunately to explain this I’ll have to reveal my sexism here - drat - but I do feel like there is a subtly different dynamic when I’m talking to a male vs. a female (I’m female, btw.) And I find that when I’m talking to someone who is transgender, I can feel that shift to their identified gender, even if I had no idea they were transgender at the time, and only learned about it later. I think, again, anecdotally, that probably speaks to gender manifesting at the very least at very subtle levels of nonverbal communication, the type of thing that isn’t explicitly learned. (Aside from that, it just seems logistically more likely that being transgender is genetic, as it’s difficult to identify an environmental factor that would specifically encourage transgenderism. If there were an environmental factor, what would it even be?)